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Yeah Trent addresses that straw-man too:Purgatory where souls are actively tortured
Yeah Trent addresses that straw-man too:
But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful.
And if we limited the definition of purgatory to exactly what St. Augustine wrote, you would also reject that. So your entire argument there is a bit of a smoke-screen, anyway.
Suffering some form of temporal punishment.
Why do parents punish their children?
Neither of those. I understand it as a "cleansing fire" or a "purifying fire" of sorts, that is "rather painful than pleasant" and necessary "to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven".Do you think that temporal punishment was pleasant, like getting a brisk scrubbing with a soft washcloth in a shower or do you think it involved torment and torture?
Like hell and heaven, there has been and will be plenty of speculation about purgatory. We know the three exist because of God's Word, but we know little of the details.Thank you for helping to make my case that Augustine certainly did not have anything related to a highly developed concept of Purgatory as defined by the Council of Trent. As you know, one can pick and choose among the vast writings of the ECFs to substantiate one's position on virtually any doctrine.
As I pointed out previously Augustine developed monergism as his primary theological legacy. His monergism has been firmly renounced by the RCC in favor of synergism, but adopted in the sixteenth century by Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther, who had been an Augustinian monk and, therefore, deeply steeped in Augustine's theology. The actual fact of the matter is that there was really very little, if anything, new in Reformed theology.
That is such a defective and (IMO) deceptive argument. You might as well be asking "Who's to say that there were not two Jesus Christs preaching at the same time?" Or "who's to say that Christ did not tell every other one of his Apostles exactly what he told Peter in the Gospel of Matthew?"
That isn't in the Bible, so are we allowed to elevate these guesses that have no backing to the level of doctrine? Heaven forbid.
The fact is that unless there is a real reason for speculating on those notions, they are no more persuasive than your point about the word of God not being the ultimate authority for essential doctrine.
The idea that there might be something else from God about which he somehow failed to inform us and which has no evidence behind it is as airy and meaningless as speculating on a thousand other "what ifs" that our imaginations are capable of conjuring up.
Well, you are certainly welcome to your personal opinion and 'who's to say' scenarios, but it doesn't change the fact that the poster, a self proclaimed adherent of sola scriptura, quoted John 17:17; ....."Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." He then goes on to say...."However....I would suggest the writings of God as found in the written Word of God as what He said is the only truth."
So, all I am saying is that John 17:17 doesn't say that at all! No where in this verse does it read that "He" said the written word alone is the the only truth.
There are, in fact, many verses saying that God's word in Scripture is supremely authoritative.I know of no Scripture verse in the bible where Jesus (or John in this case) said the written word alone is the only way to truth.
Friend you do not even hold Sola Scriptura yourself. Your own beliefs demolish it. You hold many things as dogma that are not found in text of Sacred Scripture. A few examples:But if you find the kind of argument in which the other person is challenged to prove that something else which isn't known is better than what God has said to mankind, you really should produce it and show that there's no doubt about it being the equal of God's word in Scripture when it comes to doctrine that's essential to our salvation.
Doing that would demolish Sola Scriptura.
Maybe you have read Augustine's Confessions, and City of God, and his Handbook, and some of his Sermons, and his Retractions, and the like and are well on your way to familiarity with the thought of Augustine. You have neither confirmed nor denied that. You are rather emphatic about knowing just what Augustine thought though.My assertion still stands that the Purgatory imagined by the chaps at Trent was light years from the imaginings of Augustine of Hippo.
You saw me saying, right off, that your argument seemed to me to be defective. You said "Please show in this verse, or any other verse throughout Scripture where "He" says that the "written word" is the 'only truth?'"
But there isn't any reason why he should 'prove a negative' like that!
You could have asked him to show why God's word is believable...or supremely authoritative,
but instead he was asked to show that something else that was not identified and isn't even known to exist doesn't beat divine revelation!
There are, in fact, many verses saying that God's word in Scripture is supremely authoritative.
But if you find the kind of argument in which the other person is challenged to prove that something else which isn't known is better than what God has said to mankind, you really should produce it and show that there's no doubt about it being the equal of God's word in Scripture when it comes to doctrine that's essential to our salvation.
Doing that would demolish Sola Scriptura.
Neither of those. I understand it as a "cleansing fire" or a "purifying fire" of sorts, that is "rather painful than pleasant" and necessary "to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven".
Let's take a look at the current Catechism:
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.And let's have a look at Hebrews 12:
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12)Hebrews 12, although not referring to purgatory in particular, clearly establishes the concept that God trains his people by subjecting them to a painful discipline, for their own good so that they increase in righteousness and share in his holiness.
Now for some that training is completed during this life. For many others the training is completed after death, in what the Church refers to as purgatory.
Any other questions?
Like hell and heaven, there has been and will be plenty of speculation about purgatory. We know the three exist because of God's Word, but we know little of the details.
Maybe you have read Augustine's Confessions, and City of God, and his Handbook, and some of his Sermons, and his Retractions, and the like and are well on your way to familiarity with the thought of Augustine. You have neither confirmed nor denied that. You are rather emphatic about knowing just what Augustine thought though.
So you ARE very well read in Augustine? Or are you just avoiding telling me that you really aren't and have read only a few excerpts in the last day?What we are dealing with is the ability of certain individuals to recraft one of the less-significant passages from Augustine's writings to support a doctrine which came to full fruition long after his death.
So you ARE very well read in Augustine? Or are you just avoiding telling me that you really aren't and have read only a few excerpts in the last day?
So you finally admit to gross ignorance of the works of Augustine. I did not want to presume that. It was up to you to tell me that. Now that you have done so I am going to do you the favor of letting you become informed by yourself, without handing you the tidbits you seek. In that way you have the chance to discover a profound Christian author for yourself. What you discover will ‘stick’ far better than me telling you what to think. See, it’s not up to me to enlighten you but up to you to be enlightened, or not. You can do the work. If I do it for you it’s so easy to go in one ear and out the other.I am actually rather surprised that you have not seen past my gross ignorance of Augustine's writings and have not posted pertinent passages which explicate his detailed understanding of Purgatory. If they are there, as well they could be, it is up to you to enlighten me.
So you finally admit to gross ignorance of the works of Augustine. I did not want to presume that. It was up to you to tell me that. Now that you have done so I am going to do you the favor of letting you become informed by yourself, without handing you the tidbits you seek. In that way you have the chance to discover a profound Christian author for yourself. What you discover will ‘stick’ far better than me telling you what to think. See, it’s not up to me to enlighten you but up to you to be enlightened, or not. You can do the work. If I do it for you it’s so easy to go in one ear and out the other.
A word of advice though. There are many translations of Augustine. Some of them are stodgy and some are much fresher. Spend some time finding a newer and clearer translation. I had to struggle with some older translations. You shouldn’t have to if you find a better set of translations.
You have laid your cards on the table as if you were some sort of expert on Augustine. If you can live with that I can let you live with it.As you and I both know, Augustine never held any such views of Purgatory as were later defined by the chaps at Trent. You want to make an argument from silence. I rest my case. Purgatory is an invention of the RCC alone, and is foreign to all other branches of Christianity.
As for its similarity to hell or lack thereof, there have been differing opinions on that throughout the history of the Church, but I have no particular opinion on it. I believe that there is (i) hell, (ii) purgatory, and (iii) heaven, and that after my death I'll find myself in one of the three states. The particulars of each I don't spend a ton of time thinking about, although perhaps I should. For now it's enough for me to know that the third option is much better than the second, and that the second option is much better than the first, so I'll have faith in the Lord and try to live my life accordingly.Yes, and thank you for asking. Do you believe, along with traditional RCC teaching that Purgatory is a place of fire and brimstone, similar to hell, but not eternal?
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