Purgatory

Swag365 · Aug 15, 2021

Major1 said:
Of course she was.

As a Catholic believer, are you not aware of the Catholic doctrine of "Immaculate Conception of Mary".

May I explain it to you then,

The Immaculate Conception refers to the sinless state of Mary. Pope Pius IX proclaimed this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on December 8, 1854.

The Immaculate Conception doctrine states that Mary, "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." Immaculate, meaning "without stain," implies that Mary herself was preserved from original sin at conception, that she was born without a sin nature, and that she lived a sinless life.

The problem with it is that there is NO Bible support for it. NONE! ZERO! NADA!

Interestingly, even the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (NACE) states, "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."

Romans 3:23......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

But again......it will make NO difference to you what is shown to you.

Friend, I find it amusing when you talk about there being lack of Bible support for Catholic doctrines, when the Bible does not teach that all Christian beliefs must be found in the Bible, and when you yourself hold beliefs that are not found in the Bible.

For example, you correctly believe that the book of James is the inspired word of God, but you cannot produce a verse from the Bible that teaches that James is the inspired word of God.

Secondly, you incorrectly believe that a man is justified by faith only, and not by works, when the Bible explicitly states the opposite: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Thirdly, you incorrectly hold the heretical doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in Sacred Scripture, and which is directly contradicted by Sacred Scripture.

So I cannot take your claims seriously friend.

Romans 3:23......"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Amen Brother. Amen. The best thing that you can do is quote Sacred Scripture. You err at an extremely high rate when writing anything else. Now, concerning this verse, did our Lord Jesus commit any sins?

bbbbbbb · Aug 15, 2021

Swag365 said:
Thank you for the compliment.

Now that may be the case, but they aren't meaningless repetitions. Nor was it when our Lord said the same thing three times.

Wait a second. Mary is not the mother of God? I find that most amusing friend. Most amusing. Who is she the mother of?

God is, apparently, incestuous. Mary is His Mother and His bride. Hmmmmmm.

Swag365 · Aug 15, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
God is, apparently, incestuous. Mary is His Mother and His bride. Hmmmmmm.

Nonsense. Buy a dictionary and look up the word incest.

prodromos · Aug 15, 2021

Major1 said:
Historical Fact =
Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.
The Truth about catholicism: The TRUTH about the rosary, 1

So do tell us where the Catholics went to Hindu nations and picked up this idea. After all, the site you quoted claims this is a "historical fact", in bold type no less, so please lay out those historical interactions for our edification.
It is recorded that Christian monks in a monastery established in Thebes of Egypt in 320AD used a series of knots in a chord to keep track of their prayer rule. Did they also get the idea from the Hindus?

BTW, I hope you don't use a knife and fork while eating your food, both of them evil pagan inventions

Valletta · Aug 15, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
God is, apparently, incestuous. Mary is His Mother and His bride. Hmmmmmm.

I don't think those are the words you should use at your Judgment Day.

Valletta · Aug 15, 2021

prodromos said:
So do tell us where the Catholics went to Hindu nations and picked up this idea. After all, the site you quoted claims this is a "historical fact", in bold type no less, so please lay out those historical interactions for our edification.
It is recorded that Christian monks in a monastery established in Thebes of Egypt in 320AD used a series of knots in a chord to keep track of their prayer rule. Did they also get the idea from the Hindus?

BTW, I hope you don't use a knife and fork while eating your food, both of them evil pagan inventions

We are on the subject of purgatory, there is a Catholic questions area.

bbbbbbb · Aug 15, 2021

Valletta said:
I don't think those are the words you should use at your Judgment Day.

I agree, which is why I don't accuse Mary of being the mother of God or the bride of God.

bbbbbbb · Aug 15, 2021

Valletta said:
We are on the subject of purgatory, there is a Catholic questions area.

Yes, back to the topic. I apologize for the detour.

I think we have well established that Catholic folks believe in the existence of Purgatory, although they are hard pressed to determine its precise nature. The rest of us (i.e. other branches of Christianity) do not believe in Purgatory simply because the RCC developed it during the Middle Ages and has been in the process of developing it further to the present time.

prodromos · Aug 15, 2021

Valletta said:
We are on the subject of purgatory, there is a Catholic questions area.

You are not the OP.
I have asked Major provide the 'historical facts' behind the claim he posted. I don't expect he will respond, seeing as the Catholic Church did not actually get the rosary from pagan sources, and his claimed 'fact' is anything but. It would be nice if he could admit he was wrong and apologise. I'm always hopeful.

chevyontheriver · Aug 15, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Yes, back to the topic. I apologize for the detour.

I think we have well established that Catholic folks believe in the existence of Purgatory, although they are hard pressed to determine its precise nature. The rest of us (i.e. other branches of Christianity) do not believe in Purgatory simply because the RCC developed it during the Middle Ages and has been in the process of developing it further to the present time.

If, lets just hypothesize for a moment, the idea of purgatory could be shown from Augustine, before the middle ages, hypothetically now would it change your mind at all? Just hypothetically of course.

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
If, lets just hypothesize for a moment, the idea of purgatory could be shown from Augustine, before the middle ages, hypothetically now would it change your mind at all? Just hypothetically of course.

It would be quite curious as to which form of Purgatory was contemplated by Augustine. Was it the hellfire and torture form where God exacts His purging through physical torture and torment (as promoted until the late twentieth century) or was it the lovely cleansing akin to taking a pleasant shower with fragrant soap of a heavenly nature (currently promoted)? Was it a physical reality or was it merely a metaphorical relationship outside of time and space?

chevyontheriver · Aug 16, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
It would be quite curious as to which form of Purgatory was contemplated by Augustine. Was it the hellfire and torture form where God exacts His purging through physical torture and torment (as promoted until the late twentieth century) or was it the lovely cleansing akin to taking a pleasant shower with fragrant soap of a heavenly nature (currently promoted)? Was it a physical reality or was it merely a metaphorical relationship outside of time and space?

I don't know anything about the latter purgatory so I can't speak to that. Actually, the only purgatory I know about is the one clearly spoken about at the council of Trent. All these other kinds you can have.

But you sidestepped my hypothetical question. If, hypothetically, Augustine wrote about purgatory, and Augustine wrote before the middle ages, would that change a thing for you?

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
I don't know anything about the latter purgatory so I can't speak to that. Actually, the only purgatory I know about is the one clearly spoken about at the council of Trent. All these other kinds you can have.

But you sidestepped my hypothetical question. If, hypothetically, Augustine wrote about purgatory, and Augustine wrote before the middle ages, would that change a thing for you?

If, hypothetically, Augustine clearly enunciated precisely the Purgatory defined by the Council of Trent, it would definitely capture my attention.

Here, for our mutual edification, is what the chaps at Trent had to say about Purgatory.

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people. Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass, prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

chevyontheriver · Aug 16, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
If, hypothetically, Augustine clearly enunciated precisely the Purgatory defined by the Council of Trent, it would definitely capture my attention.

Here, for our mutual edification, is what the chaps at Trent had to say about Purgatory.

Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached. The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people. Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful. The bishops shall see to it that the suffrages of the living, that is, the sacrifice of the mass, prayers, alms and other works of piety which they have been accustomed to perform for the faithful departed, be piously and devoutly discharged in accordance with the laws of the Church, and that whatever is due on their behalf from testamentary bequests or other ways, be discharged by the priests and ministers of the Church and others who are bound to render this service not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately.

That's the purgatory I'm talking about.

If that one could be found in Augustine you would have your attention captured, hypothetically anyhow.

So how well do you know your Augustine? Hypothetically, of course.

Albion · Aug 16, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
I don't know anything about the latter purgatory so I can't speak to that. Actually, the only purgatory I know about is the one clearly spoken about at the council of Trent. All these other kinds you can have.

I hesitate to point this out, but you already have it.

What he was describing was a slightly exaggerated version of what your church is teaching these days as it prepares to give Purgatory the same treatment it gave Limbo.

Valletta · Aug 16, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
It would be quite curious as to which form of Purgatory was contemplated by Augustine. Was it the hellfire and torture form where God exacts His purging through physical torture and torment (as promoted until the late twentieth century) or was it the lovely cleansing akin to taking a pleasant shower with fragrant soap of a heavenly nature (currently promoted)? Was it a physical reality or was it merely a metaphorical relationship outside of time and space?

While there is a place for some theological speculation, put your faith in God, knowing that he is a just and merciful God. If you are interested in the subject I recommend the writings of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux.

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
That's the purgatory I'm talking about.

If that one could be found in Augustine you would have your attention captured, hypothetically anyhow.

So how well do you know your Augustine? Hypothetically, of course.

Hypothetically, Augustine showed virtually no conception of Purgatory as enunciated by the Council of Trent. However, his soteriology was quite detailed. As I am sure you know, he was a strict monergist. The RCC repudiated his monergism in favor of synergism, which is far more significant than speculation regarding a non-state of being after death on the order of Limbo.

chevyontheriver · Aug 16, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Hypothetically, Augustine showed virtually no conception of Purgatory as enunciated by the Council of Trent. However, his soteriology was quite detailed. As I am sure you know, he was a strict monergist. The RCC repudiated his monergism in favor of synergism, which is far more significant than speculation regarding a non-state of being after death on the order of Limbo.

Whatever. I asked not your opinion of Augustine's concept of purgatory, but rather about how familiar you were with what he actually wrote. Anybody can have an opinion of Augustine. All they need for that is to google around to sources they already approve of. It's another thing to read what he wrote, as in whole books he wrote. Which is the case with you?

Major1 · Aug 16, 2021

prodromos said:
So do tell us where the Catholics went to Hindu nations and picked up this idea. After all, the site you quoted claims this is a "historical fact", in bold type no less, so please lay out those historical interactions for our edification.
It is recorded that Christian monks in a monastery established in Thebes of Egypt in 320AD used a series of knots in a chord to keep track of their prayer rule. Did they also get the idea from the Hindus?

BTW, I hope you don't use a knife and fork while eating your food, both of them evil pagan inventions

I suggest that you email the sources I posted.

Why do you think that sarcasm replaces historical facts.

Real history does not follow your opinions. You of course are free to believe whtever you choose to believe.

"Constantine found that with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.
Source: Pagan Roots Of The Catholic Church

Major1 · Aug 16, 2021

Valletta said:
While there is a place for some theological speculation, put your faith in God, knowing that he is a just and merciful God. If you are interested in the subject I recommend the writings of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux.

I agree 100% with what you just posted.

However....I would suggest the writings of God as found in the written Word of God as what He said is the only truth.

John 17:17.....
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

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