Purgatory - Must we believe it!

chanter said:

Michelle,

Where is the verse about fire found in the Scriptures?

I had a protestant ask me recently, but forgot where it was in the Bible.

Click to expand...

1 Cor. 3:10-17


more scripture on purgatory: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Bible passages which appear to support Purgatory:

There is no direct, unambiguous reference in the Bible to either the existence or the nature of Purgatory. Its existence has been inferred from a number of passages in the Bible: 1





[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as an integral part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying for the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person's soul could be helped by the prayer of others.[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses how each individual's good and bad works will be judged after death. This is probably the main text used by Catholics to support their belief in Purgatory. The passage refers to fire which will test the quality of each man's work. If it is burned up...he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. This passage could be interpreted as a reference to the purifying fires of Purgatory, which would eventually allow a person to escape. This reference cannot refer to Hell, because one cannot leave that place; it cannot refer to Heaven because there is no pain there; it must refer to some intermediate location. The key word in the original Greek is "zemiothesetai" which is translated as "suffer loss" in many versions of the Bible. But the original word also can refer to punishment; this alternative meaning is suppressed in most translations.[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." Some reason that if a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure; they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Other passages include: Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23. 2[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory.[/font]
from site religioustolerance

BAchristian said:

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross...so why do we need purgatory?

Click to expand...

I just found the answer to my own question.

From How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants, by James Akin

9. "It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ's work."

Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren't sufficient.

Wrong!

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient. Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

All the dear sweet Catholic nuns in my education said that the rich man was indeed in hell, and that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Hey, you can have a harlot who still has compassion for her men clients but ends up in hell because of her inordinate passions. Just because a person has compassion doesn't mean that they are a saint or will be saved.

Click to expand...

Good point. I have always assumed that the rich man was in hell also. IT really boils down to his point that "there is no compassion in hell". Interesting.

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient. Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

Click to expand...

Good post. Mind if I add that to the Catholic FAQ page?

Rising_Suns said:

Mind if I add that to the Catholic FAQ page?

Click to expand...

Of course not...just as long as you cite the author, James Akin...

Hey! It's the writer in me, alright!

Prayers for the Holy Souls


De Profundis

I place my trust in the Lord, I am certain of His word.
Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord. Lord hear my voice!
O let your ears be attentive to the voice of my pleading.

If you, O Lord, should mark our guilt, Lord, who would survive? But with you is found forgiveness: For this I revere you.

My soul is waiting for the Lord more than a watchman for daybreak. Let the watchman count on daybreak and Israel on the Lord. Israel indeed will he redeem from all its iniquity.

Glory be to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.



To the Eternal Father

Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus Christ, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere in the Universal Church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.



Prayer for the Holy Souls in Purgatory

Lord Jesus, have mercy on the souls detained in Purgatory. It was for their salvation that you took on our human nature and suffered a most painful death. Have mercy on their burning desire to see you, have mercy on their tears of repentance. Through the merits of your Passion, remit the sentence they incurred by their sins.

Dear loving Jesus, may your Blood descend on those dear souls! May it shorten their time of atonement and may they soon be called to eternal happiness in your Presence! Amen.



O Salutaris Hostia Sacra

O Holy Victim for our salvation. You are perfect humanity, true divinity, the source and origin of our salvation. Have mercy on the deceased!

You, our Redeemer, O Jesus! You erase our sins and you forgive us. Have mercy on the deceased!

Touched by our prayers, sweet Jesus, and by the supplications of all the faithful, receive our prayers, and have mercy on the deceased!

O Jesus, we beg you to grant eternal rest to those who have died in your Grace. May the eternal and blessed light shine upon them. Amen.

chanter said:

To moderators: Could we have a sticky thread devoted just for prayers for the departed.

Click to expand...

Umm, what is this stick thread?

O MASTER, TEACH US TO PRAY THE OUR FATHER



OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, I beseech You, O Heavenly Father, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, for they did not love You sufficiently, nor render to You all the honor which is Your due, due to You their Lord and Father, Who, by pure grace, have adopted them as Your children. By their sins, rather, have they driven You from their souls, where You none the less wished always to live. In reparation for these faults, I offer You the love and veneration which Your Incarnate Son showed You all during His earthly life, and I offer all the acts of penance and satisfaction which He performed and by which He effaced and atoned for the sins of men.



HALLOWED BE THY NAME, I beg You, O Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, for they did not honor, always and fittingly, Your Holy Name, but often they took It in vain and proved unworthy of the name "Christian", by their lives of sin. In reparation for their faults, I offer to You all the honor which Your Well-Beloved Son rendered to Your Name by His words and deeds.



THY KINGDOM COME; I pray You, Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, for they did not always seek or adore Your Kingdom with enough fervor and diligence;This Kingdom, the only place where true rest and peace reign. In reparation for their omissions, through indifference to do what is good, I offer You the Most Holy Desire of Your Son, by which He wished that they also might become heirs of His Kingdom.



THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN; I pray You, Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, for they did not always submit their will to Your Will. In reparation for their disobedience, I offer You the perfect conformity of the Heart, full of love, of Your Divine Son with Your Holy Will and the most profound submission which He showed in obeying You unto death on the Cross.



GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD; I pray You, Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, for they did not always receive the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist with enough desire, but often without contemplation, or love, or even unworthily, or they neglected to receive It. In reparation for these faults, I offer You the outstanding Holiness and the great contemplation of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Your Divine Son, addressed to You in favor of His enemies when He was on the Cross.



FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US; I pray You, Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, all the faults of which they have been guilty through succumbing to the Seven Capital Sins and also in not having wished either to love or pardon their enemies. In reparation for these faults, I offer You the outstanding Holiness and the great contemplation of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Your Divine Son, addressed to You in favor of His enemies when He was on the Cross.



AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION; I pray You, Father Most Good, pardon the Souls in Purgatory, because too often they did not resist temptations and the passions, but they followed the Enemy of all goodness. In reparation for all these sins, in thought, word, and deed. I offer You the glorius victory which Our Lord won against the world, as well as His Most Holy Life, His Work and Sorrows, His Suffering and His Most Cruel Death.



BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL; and from all punishments through the Infinite Merits of Your Well-Beloved Son and lead us, as well as the Souls in Purgatory, into Your Kingdom of eternal glory. Amen.

Following is the story to the prayer in the previous post
Jean-Marc

The following story, which tells of what happened to a lady, a privileged soul, on 2 February, 1968, the Feast of Candlemas, shows us the very great value and the fruitful use which one may make of the Our Father, composed by St Mechtilde for the relief of the souls in Purgatory.

It took pace in Switzerland, at Hinsiein, a place of pilgrimage to Mary. On a weekday in winter, it was, the church was almost empty. Madame Aloisia Lex was praying with some relatives. Looking towards the High-altar, she noticed the presence of a very old nun, dressed in a very old-fashioned religious habit, dating from a bygone age. She went towards her and this nun gave her a prayersheet which she put mechanically into her pocket. There took place, then, something strange; the entrance door opened suddenly and she beheld an enormous crowd of pilgrims arriving, very poorly dressed, who walked with muffled steps, like phantoms. A flood of pilgrims, an almost unending line, which came into the church. A priest stood there and showed them the way. The country-woman wondered, in astonishment, how this immense crowd was going to have enough space in the church. She turned to the side, then, for a brief moment, to light a candle. When she looked behind again, the church was empty as at the beginning.

Completely amazed, Aloisia asked her parents where all the people had gone. Nobody, however, who had come with her, had noticed the procession of pilgrims and none either had seen the nun. Not believing her eyes, she sought, in her pocket, the sheet which she had been given. This sheet which she held in her hands, clearly proved to her that she had not imagined everything. It contained the text of a prayer which in times past, Our Lord had taught to St. Mechtilde, during an apparition. It was the Our Father, for the Souls in Purgatory. Each time St. Mechtilde recited this prayer, she saw countless Souls in Purgatory rise up to Heaven.

Miscellaneous small prayers (mostly for the Holy Souls)

Eternal Father, I offer You the Most Precious Blood of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, in union with the Masses said today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home, and within my family. Amen
Eternal Father, from this day forward, I accept with a joyful and resigned heart the death it will please You to send me, with all its pains and sufferings and without a Purgatory.

Eternal Father, I offer You the Most Precious Blood of Jesus, with all the Masses being said all over the world this day, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory.

My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon of you for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.



Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place my trust in You.

Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen

Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place my trust in You!



Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus….



O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us, I/We trust in You.



Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus-Christ, in attonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world.



My Jesus, mercy. My Jesus, have pity on me, a sinner.

My Jesus, I love You. My Jesus, give me a happy death.



Très doux Seigneur Jésus, je te prie de bien vouloir exaucer, par les mérites de ta très Sainte Vie, cette prière que je t’adresse pour les Défunts de tous les temps, et spécialement ceux pour qui on ne prie jamais.

Je te demande de suppléer à tout ce que ces âmes ont négligé dans l’exercice de tes louanges, de ton amour, de la reconnaissance, de la prière, des vertus et de toutes les autres bonnes oeuvres qu’elles auraient pu accomplir et qu’elles n’ont point faites, ou qu’elles ont accomplies avec trop d’imperfection. Amen



I will praise Thee O’God in the sight of Thy Angels,

I will adore Thee in Thy holy Temple, and I will confess Thy Name.

O Loving Jesus, meek Lamb of God, I a miserable sinner, salute and worship the most Sacred Wound of Your Shoulder on which You bore Your heavy Cross, which so tore Your Flesh and laid bare Your Bones as to inflict on You an anguish greater than any other Wound of Your Most Blessed Body. I adore You, O Jesus most sorrowful; I praise and glorify You and give You thanks for this most sacred and painful Wound, beseeching You by the crushing burden of Your heavy Cross to be merciful to the souls in purgatory and to me, a sinner, to forgive me all my mortal and venial sins, and to lead me on towards Heaven along the Way of Your Cross. Amen.

Not too many people on this board.
Just like it says in the book "Read me or Rue it'
Nobody for the Holy Souls; All for the living.
Nothing wrong with looking after the living and we don't do it enough;
But we don't do enough for the Holy Souls; I know cause I was one of them. Cheers

Hi there chanter;
Nothing nasty about my comment at all; it's a comment from Father O'Sullivan in "Read me or Rue it'.
It simply meant that there is always someone to help the living but not enough people help the Holy souls by prayers, fasting, sacrifice, assisting at masses and having masses said.
The fact that there is so much suffering in Purgatory and for so long has astounded me!!!!! I have had people pass away in my family and neglected having masses said through sheer ignorance. Now I hope I know a bit better. I pray at least 1-1.5 hours per day for the souls and assist at mass or communion service every day and offer all for the Holy Souls. Also every day I have a special prayer for a deceased member of my family and my wife.
I am 59 so lots of deceased members. I must say this is a great way to bring back fond memories from dear uncles, aunts grandparents and cousins.
Again sorry if my statement was a little ambiguous; I only mean good for all. Cheers

Ha ha ha:
By now you know I am french canadian.
I should be careful when I write and complete my sentences eg. "I know cause I was one of them.....that did not do enough for the Holy Souls"
Wow I am laughing out loud LOL.