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Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?
My first question is this...
If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics...
Using that vocavulary, space isn't being 'created' from nothingness: the number of position vectors is increasing. Indeed, we say the universe is expanding because the number of position vectors is increasing.Well, put, and you're essentially correct. Still, we're arguing semantics here, which is a little nit-picky. Using that vocabulary, space is constantly being created from nothingness, due to the expanding universe. An interesting take on spontaneous generation.
Agreed. It is classic 'God of the Gaps' mentality.The relativity of perception is an entirely different debate. Again, I concede you have a point. Mine, however, was simply that the relativity of time, and the "creation" of space in no way supports the existence of a God.
Are you asking me, or are you being rhetorical?Christians talk about The Big Bang having an origin. So what's your God's origin? You dont know? So that makes your explanation better than ours...why?
Agreed.Space isn't really created from nothingness. Space simply expands.
Is that not the case?You are making it sound like just outside the boundaries of the universe exists nothingness.
Clearly? Your two statements here contradict each other quite spectacularily.Clearly, nothing is outside the boundaries of space, and clearly nothingness cannot exist.
You are wrong. The Big Bang didn't create space. The Big Bang didn't create a vacuum. The definition of "space" in astronomic terms is nothingness.
I would also argue the point that time, or for that matter, the laws of physics, were created. Time is simply the word we give to our perception of it. A minute isn't 60 seconds because it just is, its 60 seconds because that's the way we choose to represent our perception of it.
If he could be proven, then we would all be forced to acknowledge his existence like we can't help but acknowledge gravity's existence. It'd be a foregone conclusion, thus undermining the basis of the faith-based following God wants. To prove God would be to A) somehow be smarter than him, since you got around the roadblocks he put in place to prevent that and B) shatter any concept of spiritual justice. If God is a matter of fact, and not belief, then there is no way to decide who goes to Heaven and Hell - because everyone believes in God.
But there is still something there which we perceive - just because the way we divide it up is purely contingent doesn't negate its existence.
You could still possibly prove the existence of God though. The Bible may be incorrect, or you may prove the existence of a different God.
Are you asking me, or are you being rhetorical?
No, I think you're missing my point. Obviously, time exists in a very real and observable fashion. My point is that time is not a hard and fast, unexplainable aspect of the universe. For you to exist, you must exist at some point in time. Time is simply a facet of existence, and does not point to it's creation by a god.
Time isn't really part of existence. It's conceivable that something could exist, and yet not exist in time or space.
Well, you made no real progress toward proving a kind of creator god exists at all.Eledhan said:Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't understand the "and all we have to go by are the laws of physics" part of the question. The matter in our universe (or, our universe) came from the expansion and condensation of energy. According to current models.If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?
I don't know if it came "from" anywhere, since there is no time or space to provide any lucid reference.If there is no God, where did energy come from?
The big bang didn't expand into a vacuum. There was simply no space dimensions at all, the expansion created the space matter needs to inhabit.In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.
I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.
Is there a way to explain it using any other means? An explanation is expected to be slightly more rigorous than ad hoc stories that allow for any possibility imaginable, i.e 'gods'.Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?
"Life" is a physical, chemical process. If the conditions allow, chemical processes will occur and something fitting a loose definition of life will result and evolve.However, that would have been my next line of questioning...how did the laws of physics become so fine-tuned to permit life?
Not really.
Time isn't really part of existence. It's conceivable that something could exist, and yet not exist in time or space.
Of course it's conceivable. This God concept doesn't exist in time or space, so you've got a counterexample right there.
Actually all matter boils down to pure energy.Why is this so difficult to a logical mind?
My first question is this...
If there is no God, and all we have to go by are the laws of physics, then where did all the matter in the universe come from?
Second question...
If there is no God, where did energy come from?
Depends on what you mean by nothing. The repulsive force between same poles on two magnets is something that you can physically feel yet what is between the magnets can be seen as 'nothing' in the physical senseThird question...
If there is no God, is there any way for something to come from nothing?
In response to my own questions, I have to say "I don't have the slightest idea" to each one. Now, I realize that I am not the most intelligent person on the planet, so if anyone has a simple, concise answer with scientific proof of bringing matter or energy from a vaccuum, then I would love to hear about it.
I also would like to know how you can have a vaccuum without the idea of "space", which is considered to be one of the things created in the "Big Bang Theory" along with matter and time.
So, ultimately my question is this...
Is there any possible way to explain the origins of the universe using purely natural means?
I say there's not...it's impossible for something to come from nothing. You can't have space just appear. And there's no such thing as physics creating time.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes and no. As much as "time" and "space" are only conceivable within the constraint of our universe, "existence" is similarly bound.
If something were to "exist" outside of time and space, then it doesn't really have any existence we can observe or that will impact us in any way.
It's not existence as we would be able to know or understand it.
I can conceive of a God who can make square circles, that doesn't mean it's valid.
All things that act, act within a concept of time.
All things that exist, act.
Really? What makes you say that?
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