Protons and Neutrons in a Decaying Universe

Mike Elphick · Sep 12, 2011

In a recent Answers in Genesis article we read:-

Physicists tell us that they have no idea what holds the protons and neutrons together in the nucleus of an atom. This cohesive force is a mystery to scientists, but Paul states that it is simply the controlling influence of the Creator. In other words, all the material elements that comprise everything in the universe would disintegrate into absolute chaos were it not for Christ holding it all together. Whos Number One in the Universe? by Dan Hayden

Physicists have no idea what holds the protons and neutrons together? Well, not quite

Surely, if the world was made to God's standard of "good", or "very good", then all atomic nuclei must have been stable after creation and before God's Curse. It stands to reason, because decay and degeneration (and even entropy) came into being when God cursed the ground. See my notes on degeneration.

Therefore nuclear decay and radioactivity must be post-Fall and post-Curse phenomena, so the creationists' argument that decay was greater in the past goes against their general philosophy of degeneration increasing time. It also makes a complete nonsense of their dismissal of radio-isotope dating methods. I mean, how can the creationists' world view that everything began degenerating and disintegrating after the Fall, like increasing mutation rates, but various atomic nuclei did the opposite?

Besides, how many people really believe that Christ is physically holding together "everything in the universe" and that it "would disintegrate into absolute chaos" without his upholding powers?

dad · Sep 12, 2011

Mike Elphick said:
In a recent Answers in Genesis article we read:-

Physicists have no idea what holds the protons and neutrons together? Well, not quite

So, what causes the strong force?

Surely, if the world was made to God's standard of "good", or "very good", then all atomic nuclei must have been stable after creation and before God's Curse. It stands to reason, because decay and degeneration (and even entropy) came into being when God cursed the ground. See my notes on degeneration.

Therefore nuclear decay and radioactivity must be post-Fall and post-Curse phenomena, so the creationists' argument that decay was greater in the past goes against their general philosophy of degeneration increasing time.

We don't all argue that.

It also makes a complete nonsense of their dismissal of radio-isotope dating methods. I mean, how can the creationists' world view that everything began degenerating and disintegrating after the Fall, like increasing mutation rates, but various atomic nuclei did the opposite?

Besides, how many people really believe that Christ is physically holding together "everything in the universe" and that it "would disintegrate into absolute chaos" without his upholding powers?

If He made it, and set up the whatevers to keep it together, then one can truly say 'by him all things consist'.

Mike Elphick · Sep 15, 2011

Let's put this another way:- If Christ is holding together all the atoms in the universe, why do we observe unstable atoms that exhibit radioactivity?

Alpha decay [an alpha particle consists of two protons and two neutrons bound together into a particle identical to a helium nucleus], is by far the most common form of cluster decay where the parent atom ejects a defined daughter collection of nucleons, leaving another defined product behind...
Alpha decay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bear in mind that DNA cannot escape the damaging effects of high-energy alpha particles, which therefore results in mutation.

In the young Earth creationist 'model' God created the world 'good', or 'very good' with 'created kinds' possessing 'perfect genes'. Thereafter, following God's Curse we get mutations and general degeneration

In the creationist model, since radio-active decay caused mutations, radioactivity must have started at the time of the Curse, when God (and presumably Christ) relaxed their upholding powers.

Therefore the creationists' rebuttals of radioactive dating, such as past higher rates, contradict their own model.

QED.

Loudmouth · Sep 15, 2011

dad said:
So, what causes the strong force?

The exchange of mesons between protons.

The Strong Nuclear Force

dad · Sep 16, 2011

Loudmouth said:
The exchange of mesons between protons.

So what causes this exchange?

Be honest, you don't know what time is, gravity, or etc! What sets up the strong force? What causes it? Why is it here?

dad · Sep 16, 2011

Mike Elphick said:
Let's put this another way:- If Christ is holding together all the atoms in the universe, why do we observe unstable atoms that exhibit radioactivity?

Bear in mind that DNA cannot escape the damaging effects of high-energy alpha particles, which therefore results in mutation.

In the young Earth creationist 'model' God created the world 'good', or 'very good' with 'created kinds' possessing 'perfect genes'. Thereafter, following God's Curse we get mutations and general degeneration

In the creationist model, since radio-active decay caused mutations, radioactivity must have started at the time of the Curse, when God (and presumably Christ) relaxed their upholding powers.

Therefore the creationists' rebuttals of radioactive dating, such as past higher rates, contradict their own model.

QED.

No. I asume radioactive decay is a post flood thingie. (post Split, actually)

Loudmouth · Sep 16, 2011

dad said:
So what causes this exchange?

You are shifting the goal posts, as usual.

Be honest, you don't know what time is, gravity, or etc!

A second is the amount of time it takes light to travel ~3E8 meters. Gravity is the result of mass warping space time. Huh, it appears I do know.

What sets up the strong force? What causes it?

The exchange of mesons between nucleons, as explained before.

super animator · Sep 16, 2011

Hey loundmouth, quick question, what is strong/weak force anyhow? It's driving me crazy to know what it is.

Nostromo · Sep 16, 2011

dad said:
So what causes this exchange?

Be honest, you don't know what time is, gravity, or etc! What sets up the strong force? What causes it? Why is it here?

Same thing that causes God.

TemperateSeaIsland · Sep 16, 2011

Nostromo said:
Same thing that causes God.

Wishful thinking?

Nostromo · Sep 16, 2011

TemperateSeaIsland said:
Wishful thinking?

dad said:
No. I asume radioactive decay is a post flood thingie. (post Split, actually)

Because it has the word 'decay' in it?

dad · Sep 17, 2011

Nostromo said:
Because it has the word 'decay' in it?

Yes. That being a feature of this present state, one naturally would lean to that position, unless evidence suggested otherwise.

dad · Sep 17, 2011

Nostromo said:
Same thing that causes God.

God is the cause...not caused. So you can't answer what causes the strong force. OK. What a scream.

dad · Sep 17, 2011

Loudmouth said:
You are shifting the goal posts, as usual.

Not at all, did you nor mention said exchange? Therefore you should know something about it. You are hiding your ignorance as usual.

A second is the amount of time it takes light to travel ~3E8 meters. Gravity is the result of mass warping space time. Huh, it appears I do know.

No. I didn't ask how they work! What is time? ..Not how do men measure it in the world of men. Why do physical objects attract each other exactly?

The exchange of mesons between nucleons, as explained before.

Meaningless. Why do they exchange precisely?

dad · Sep 17, 2011

Mike Elphick said:
Let's put this another way:- If Christ is holding together all the atoms in the universe, why do we observe unstable atoms that exhibit radioactivity?

Because our neck of the universe is in a temporal state.

Bear in mind that DNA cannot escape the damaging effects of high-energy alpha particles, which therefore results in mutation.

So? Point? If there was no radiation when most evolution occurred how would this matter?

In the young Earth creationist 'model' God created the world 'good', or 'very good' with 'created kinds' possessing 'perfect genes'. Thereafter, following God's Curse we get mutations and general degeneration

How would you know that the bad stuff was due to 'mutations'?

In the creationist model, since radio-active decay caused mutations, radioactivity must have started at the time of the Curse, when God (and presumably Christ) relaxed their upholding powers.

No. I do not claim mutations were the evo order of the day pre split.

Nostromo · Sep 17, 2011

dad said:
Yes. That being a feature of this present state, one naturally would lean to that position, unless evidence suggested otherwise.

The evidence does suggest otherwise, but we've been through that enough times already.

Radioactive 'decay' isn't decay in the normal sense of the word, it's just nuclear change. Besides, I'd be interested to know how the Sun shone back then without it.

TemperateSeaIsland · Sep 17, 2011

Heck I'm curious to know how Adam and Eve could have digested their food without the ability to break down carbohydrates, fats and proteins.

Nostromo · Sep 17, 2011

dad said:
God is the cause...not caused. So you can't answer what causes the strong force. OK. What a scream.

Why does it need a cause?

Nostromo · Sep 17, 2011

TemperateSeaIsland said:
Heck I'm curious to know how Adam and Eve could have digested their food without the ability to break down carbohydrates, fats and proteins.

He doesn't think there was any death in the Garden, so presumably they just ate rocks.

Mike Elphick · Sep 17, 2011

Really, dad, after two goes at explaining this, you still don't get it!

The young Earth creationists' claim that "...all the material elements that comprise everything in the universe would disintegrate into absolute chaos were it not for Christ holding it all together" invalidates their objection to radio-dating based on higher past disintegration rates.

It's about the young Earth creationism model of Fall, Curse and degeneration, not some whacky fringe notion of different physical 'states' past, present and future.

dad said:
Mike Elphick said:

Let's put this another way:- If Christ is holding together all the atoms in the universe, why do we observe unstable atoms that exhibit radioactivity?

Click to expand...

Because our neck of the universe is in a temporal state.

You mean that Christ has temporarily lost or suspended his universal atomic and nuclear upholding powers? Well, don't you see this still supports my contention about the young Earth creationist 'model' in which past disintegration rates were higher not lower when the world was created?

dad said:
Mike Elphick said:

Bear in mind that DNA cannot escape the damaging effects of high-energy alpha particles, which therefore results in mutation.

Click to expand...

So? Point? If there was no radiation when most evolution occurred how would this matter?

I'm not talking about evolution, I'm talking about the young Earth creationist 'model' of a perfect beginning ruined by sin and God's Curse.

dad said:
Mike Elphick said:

In the young Earth creationist 'model' God created the world 'good', or 'very good' with 'created kinds' possessing 'perfect genes'. Thereafter, following God's Curse we get mutations and general degeneration

Click to expand...

How would you know that the bad stuff was due to 'mutations'?

Once again, and I have been explicit about this throughout, I'm talking about young Earth creationism. Please look at the links provided.

dad said:
Mike Elphick said:

In the creationist model, since radio-active decay caused mutations, radioactivity must have started at the time of the Curse, when God (and presumably Christ) relaxed their upholding powers.

Click to expand...

No. I do not claim mutations were the evo order of the day pre split.

For goodness sake, I'm not talking about evolution, but the stability of the atom and the claim about Christ's upholding force.

Allow me to repeat:-

Therefore the creationists' rebuttals of radioactive dating, such as past higher rates, contradict their own model.

QED.

Protons and Neutrons in a Decaying Universe

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Undefeated!

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Dreamer

Brian Blessed can take a hike

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi

Brian Blessed can take a hike

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Brian Blessed can take a hike

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi

Brian Blessed can take a hike

Brian Blessed can take a hike

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