Protestant Catechism, is there such a thing?

public hermit · Oct 22, 2019

James Murphy said:
I had a feeling that's the direction the thread would go after reading the OP's first posts.

I'm not gullible, but I can be a little slow. I was in this case, anyway.

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

Fidelibus said:
You are entitled to your opinion.

However, if you noticed any untruths in the article I posted, please point them out for discussion. If not, would you agree that I should relay to my Protestant co-worker, due to the fact, (as you stated) there are "numerous denominations with differing beliefs" there is no such thing as a "Catechism of the Protestant Church", because there are those teaching "different doctrine and beliefs" all over the place? (All coming from one source...... the Bible.)

If you mean that seriously, tell him that "Protestantism" is a term that refers to hundreds of different churches. There is no standard, one-size-fits-all catechism for them, therefore. However also, almost every Protestant denomination does have a catechism or something that is similar to a catechism.

Athanasius377 · Oct 22, 2019

Fidelibus said:
"Does Protestantism have a functional equivalent to the Catechism of the Catholic Church - a book which any Catholic can pick up to figure out, without a whole lot of difficulty, what is the Protestant belief on this or that topic of faith? For example, is there a Protestant catechism that lays out exactly what Protestant beliefs are regarding Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide or the Rapture or Once Saved Always Saved or a whole host of other doctrinal issues that Catholics and Protestants differ on? I say there is not.

So you're looking for a confession not a catechism. You should probably revise the original post. As to your question, the Lutheran answer is yes and it isn't just Luther's Small catechism. Of course John Martignoni has to conflate the two terms and then throw everyone who isn't catholic into one pot and call it Protestantism (which I might add is a misuse of that historical term as well). But then again John has never concerned himself with being accurate with either historical sources or his opponents' positions. In fact he knows the equivalent to the CCC isn't Luther's small catechism rather he is counting on the ignorance of his audience with regard to the word catechism to bolster his argument.

So, if you want a single volume that states definitively what the Lutheran church believes, teaches and confesses? That is the Book of Concord also called Concordia. The current text dates from around 1580. The English text can be found here:
Welcome to the Book of Concord

Luther's small catechism is included in the BOC but was never intended to be n exhaustive confessional statement but rather a basic introduction to the Christian faith by question and answer format. In fact the Baltimore catechism that I remember is laid out the same way.

The Baltimore Catechism

All of this begs the question: What in the world did Rome do prior to 1992 (The publication and promulgation of the current CCC which I might add is already obsolete thanks to Francis)? Does the lack of a single catechism during this time bother you? Could not the same argument be made as a Lutheran during this said time?

Concord1968 · Oct 22, 2019

public hermit said:
I'm not gullible, but I can be a little slow. I was in this case, anyway.

Naw, you approached the thread in good faith! I just tend to get suspicious when I see a few "red flags"

Fidelibus · Oct 22, 2019

Oscarr said:
The Westminster Confession of Faith is probably the most well known "catechism" of Protestant Christianity.

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

The Westminster Confession isn't actually a catechism, but none of us (I think) were entirely sure at the beginning whether what was wanted was a catechism like the Baltimore Catechism or if the inquiry you received was asking about something more like an itemized statement of faith.

Fidelibus · Oct 22, 2019

Oscarr said:
The Westminster Confession of Faith is probably the most well known "catechism" of Protestant Christianity.

But not all Protestant's agree with it. For example, reguarding Baptisim, the Westminster Shorter Catechism - Reformed (1648) states in question 94: What is baptism?

“Baptism is a sacrament, wherein the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, doth signify and seal our ingrafting into Christ, and partaking of the benefits of the covenant of grace, and our engagement to be the Lord's.”

And in question 95: To whom is baptism to be administered?

“Baptism is not to be administered to any that are out of the visible church, till they profess their faith in Christ, and obedience to him; but the infants of such as are members of the visible church are to be baptized.”

Where the Baptist Catechism (1689) states: in questions 97 and 99.

Question 97: What is baptism?

“Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament instituted by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death, burial, and resurrection; of his being ingrafted into him (Rom. 6:3, 4, 5; Col. 2:12; Gal. 3:27); of remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Acts 2:38, and 22:16); and of his giving up himself unto God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3, 4).”

Question 99: Are the infants of such as are professing believers to be baptized?

“The infants of such as are professing believers are not to be baptized, because there is neither command or example in the holy scriptures, or certain consequence from them to baptize such (Ex. 23:13; Pr. 30:6; Lk. 3:7, 8).”

And Martin Luther's Small Catechism (1529) states in section 4:

The Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

“It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.”

“It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.”

“It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.”

And in the Methodist Missions Catechism (1853), it states in chapter 12:

Chapter XII - The Sacraments

“1. What is baptism? Baptism is a sign of the grace of God that makes us Christians.”

“2. Does Baptism make us Christians? No; water cannot make us Christians; grace makes us Christians.”

“4. Ought little children to be baptized? Yes, they belong to Christ.”

I could quote many more, but will end with the Presbyterian Intermediate Catechism (1912) in number 33 it states:

"#33 - Baptism is symbolic"

So with that being said, the Westminster Confession of Faith may be the most well known "catechism" of Protestant Christianity, but as we read above, not the exclusive or widely believed.

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

Fidelibus said:
But not all Protestant's agree with it.

So what?

Fidelibus · Oct 22, 2019

Albion said:
So what?

So how do Protestants know which one is correct and which one is not?

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

Fidelibus said:
So how do Protestants know which one is correct and which one is not?

Presumably they align with the teachings of the churches to which they belong, and not with the churches that they do not belong to.

Just as is the case with you and other Catholics.

What's so hard about this?

Concord1968 · Oct 22, 2019

I'd point out that all the term "Protestant" is is a generic grouping encompassing a number of churches: It not a church in and of itself; there's no such thing the "Protestant Church". Obviously, that being the case, there is no "Protestant Catechism".

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

James Murphy said:
I'd point out that all the term "Protestant" is is a generic grouping encompassing a number of churches: It not a church in and of itself; there's no such thing the "Protestant Church". Obviously, that being the case, there is no "Protestant Catechism".

This is of course true. But I have to wonder how many times it has to be said before it sinks in with some people. We are now in post 92 of this thread, and it's been said several different ways by different members, yet we still get back what we saw in post 89!

Concord1968 · Oct 22, 2019

Albion said:
This is of course true. But I have to wonder how many times it has to be said before it sinks in with some people. We are now in post 92 of this thread, and it's been said several different ways, yet we still read what we saw in post 89!

Oh I fully expect it will be ignored lol.....

Funny thing, one could ask Catholics "So how do Catholics know which one is correct and which one is not?" since, after all, there are Sedivacantists who say one thing, the Vatican who contradicts itself, and Modernists who say differently from the two others.

Athanasius377 · Oct 22, 2019

James Murphy said:
Oh I fully expect it will be ignored lol.....

Funny thing, one could ask Catholics "So how do Catholics know which one is correct and which one is not?" since, after all, there are Sedivacantists who say one thing, the Vatican who contradicts itself, and Modernists who say differently from the two others.

Or better yet, the hierarchy that doesn't believe the catechism and those catholics that do:

Faithful Catholics Throw Amazonian Idols Displayed in the Vatican into the Tiber River

Cheers for these guys.

Mountainmike · Oct 22, 2019

Athanasius377 said:
What does this have to do with anything the OP was asking? I am certain a thread could be about the weather and a Sola Scriptura post would inevitably appear.

With respect the context of a catechism is as important as the content!

The existence of a catechism is demonstration that more is needed than scripture, else why produce it?

The authority of a catechism is the essential question.

And in all cases it is codified tradition. Faith handed down.
Much as (for example) the uk consitution is not codified, but it certainly exists.
So the fact of the date of the documents is largely irrelevant if the underlying doctrine existed before the doctrine.

Concord1968 · Oct 22, 2019

Athanasius377 said:
Or better yet, the hierarchy that doesn't believe the catechism and those catholics that do:

Faithful Catholics Throw Amazonian Idols Displayed in the Vatican into the Tiber River

Cheers for these guys.

Absolutely!

Mountainmike · Oct 22, 2019

Perhaps albion might like to comment on the 10 articles of his church from 1536

The Bible and the three ecumenical creeds are the basis and summary of true Christian faith.
Baptism imparts remission of sins and regeneration and is necessary for salvation, even in the case of infants. It condemns the opinions of Anabaptists and Pelagians as heresy.
The sacrament of penance, with confession and absolution, is necessary to salvation.
That the body and blood of Christ are really present in the Eucharist.
Justification is by faith, but good works are necessary.
Images can be used as representations of virtue and good example and also to remind people of their sins but are not objects of worship.
Saints are to be honored as examples of life and as furthering the prayers of the faithful.
Praying to saints is permitted, and holy days should be observed.
The observance of various rites and ceremonies, such as clerical vestments, sprinkling of holy water, bearing of candles on Candlemas, giving of ashes on Ash Wednesday, is good and laudable. However, none of these has power to forgive sin.
It is a good and charitable deed to pray for the dead. However, the doctrine of purgatory is biblically uncertain. Abuses related to purgatory, such as the claim that papal indulgences or masses for the dead offered at certain localities (such as the scala coeli mass) can deliver immediately from purgatory, are to be rejected.

How far you have drifted.... But then is that indicative of lack of an anchor?
It is the fact that anglicanism makes it up as it goes along, that led me to leave in the end.

Albion · Oct 22, 2019

Mountainmike said:
With respect the context of a catechism is as important as the content!

The existence of a catechism is demonstration that more is needed than scripture, else why produce it?

A catechism is intended to make complicated theological issues and church practices more easily understood by the members. Because the Catholic Church is the most legalistic of all Christian denominations, it is understandable that she needs something like a catechism even if some other denominations don't feel the need.

The authority of a catechism is the essential question.

No, the question was simply whether or not the Protestant churches use them as well. As we have seen, some do and some don't.

Mountainmike · Oct 22, 2019

Albion said:
A catechism is intended to make complicated theological issues and church practices more easily understood by the members. Because the Catholic Church is the most legalistic of all Christian denominations, it is understandable that she needs something like a catechism even if some other denominations don't feel the need.

No, the question was simply whether or not the Protestant churches use them as well. As we have seen, some do and some don't.

Athanasius377 · Oct 22, 2019

I’ll retract this. It wasn’t fair and it’s a cheap shot. My apologies
@Mountainmike

Protestant Catechism, is there such a thing?

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