Protecting your family

Kylie · Feb 9, 2020

Darkhorse said:
The data is tough to evaluate with any real certainty, but a 2013 study from our government's Center for Disease Control stated:

“almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.”

If there are between 500,000 and 3 million uses of firearms in a defense situation per year, please provide evidence of this.

Also, in the USA 2/3 of deaths from firearms each year are suicides, which would be over 40,000 in 2018, according to your figures. While some people insist that restricting access to guns would reduce these suicides, that seems highly speculative, considering that Japan (for example) has very strict gun regulation, and also has a higher suicide rate than the USA.

And how many of those suicides are done with guns?

I think cultural differences play an important role in this issue. The fact that our countries share a common language (sort of) does not mean they have identical cultures.

I agree that there is a cultural aspect - many people in the USA seem to have a culture where a gun is a phallic representation (you gotta admit, it seems to be men who go around shooting places up a lot more than women). That just screams toxic masculinity to me...

CDC Study: Use of Firearms for Self-Defense is ‘Important Crime Deterrent’

What about all those cases where the little kid finds his mum's gun and accidentally blows her brains out?

Adino The Eznite · Feb 9, 2020

Kylie Defeater of Illogic" And how many of those suicides are done with guns?"

Some people are so dumb! Any one with a sound mind would know, Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue.

List of suicide sites - Wikipedia

List of suicide sites - Wikipedia
Natchez Trace Parkway Bridge in Franklin, Tennessee is a suicide bridge that is the site of at least 30 completed suicides since 1993, as of January 2018. New River Gorge Bridge in Fayetteville, West Virginia; Niagara Falls — between 1856 and 1995 there were 2,780 known suicides; and there are 20 to 25 per year.

1. The Golden Gate Bridge
Sad statistics: 1,500 deaths, approximately 30 suicides per year
10 Suicide Bridges People Are Most Likely to Jump Off – Open Travel

MAYBE WE SHOULD BAN BRIDGES

Zoii · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
Some people are so dumb! Any one with a sound mind would know, Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue.

List of suicide sites - Wikipedia
List of suicide sites - Wikipedia
Natchez Trace Parkway Bridge in Franklin, Tennessee is a suicide bridge that is the site of at least 30 completed suicides since 1993, as of January 2018. New River Gorge Bridge in Fayetteville, West Virginia; Niagara Falls — between 1856 and 1995 there were 2,780 known suicides; and there are 20 to 25 per year.

1. The Golden Gate Bridge
Sad statistics: 1,500 deaths, approximately 30 suicides per year
10 Suicide Bridges People Are Most Likely to Jump Off – Open Travel

MAYBE WE SHOULD BAN BRIDGES

Hi Adino. I'm glad you decided to come back.

Just a few words about suicide. Its off topic but still worth a brief comment.
I temper what I say with the fact my learning in this is limited. That said my mother is an expert and leader in her field....

Suicide risk is heightened with impulsivity . That means, you can have intrinsic depression (meaning chronic depression) or extrinsic issues (eg the recent death of a loved one) that that heightens your thought patterns concerning suicide. But when you also have impulsiveness, it heightens your risk of acting out - Thus when the means of acting out is close at hand, it raises the risk substantially of completing suicide.

So - yes if they lived close to a bridge they may jump - OR more commonly, if they have a lot of medications in the house, they will overdose.

When its a gun, they will use it and I think that's what @Kylie is referring to - The trouble with a gun is, the chance of the person surviving that impulsive act is substantially lowered. Can you agree that in such cases where people are acutely or chronically depressed, that removing a gun from their house is a sensible and valuable action.

keith99 · Feb 9, 2020

Zoii said:
Hi Adino. I'm glad you decided to come back.

Just a few words about suicide. Its off topic but still worth a brief comment.
I temper what I say with the fact my learning in this is limited. That said my mother is an expert and leader in her field....

Suicide risk is heightened with impulsivity . That means, you can have intrinsic depression (meaning chronic depression) or extrinsic issues (eg the recent death of a loved one) that that heightens your thought patterns concerning suicide. But when you also have impulsiveness, it heightens your risk of acting out - Thus when the means of acting out is close at hand, it raises the risk substantially of completing suicide.

So - yes if they lived close to a bridge they may jump - OR more commonly, if they have a lot of medications in the house, they will overdose.

When its a gun, they will use it and I think that's what @Kylie is referring to - The trouble with a gun is, the chance of the person surviving that impulsive act is substantially lowered. Can you agree that in such cases where people are acutely or chronically depressed, that removing a gun from their house is a sensible and valuable action.

Actually if they use a rifle the chances of surviving are pretty good because unless you are rather tall you are very apt to force your chin up and the result is blowing your jaw off, not your brains out.

The reconstructive surgery they could do 40 years ago was quite impressive. I assume they can do even better now.

BTW they have sort of outlawed bridges. I can not think of one near me where there is not a pretty high fence or total enclosure for pedestrian overpasses.

Zoii · Feb 9, 2020

keith99 said:
Actually if they use a rifle the chances of surviving are pretty good because unless you are rather tall you are very apt to force your chin up and the result is blowing your jaw off, not your brains out.

The reconstructive surgery they could do 40 years ago was quite impressive. I assume they can do even better now.

BTW they have sort of outlawed bridges. I can not think of one near me where there is not a pretty high fence or total enclosure for pedestrian overpasses.

I take your point about a rifle. Here men seem to manage it. Owning a handgun here is very unusual. I accept your point that the risk goes up that all you will achieve is blowing your face off. It doesn't alter my point about firearms versus suicidal impulsivity

Kylie · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
Some people are so dumb! Any one with a sound mind would know, Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue.

List of suicide sites - Wikipedia
List of suicide sites - Wikipedia
Natchez Trace Parkway Bridge in Franklin, Tennessee is a suicide bridge that is the site of at least 30 completed suicides since 1993, as of January 2018. New River Gorge Bridge in Fayetteville, West Virginia; Niagara Falls — between 1856 and 1995 there were 2,780 known suicides; and there are 20 to 25 per year.

1. The Golden Gate Bridge
Sad statistics: 1,500 deaths, approximately 30 suicides per year
10 Suicide Bridges People Are Most Likely to Jump Off – Open Travel

MAYBE WE SHOULD BAN BRIDGES

Ah, so the Natchez Trace Parkway Bridge has about 30 suicides since 1993 (that's 27 years ago, so about one a year). The Golden gate Bridge has about 30 per year. The other examples you cite are also about 30 per year.

Suicides using guns in the United States are about 22,000 a year.

Tell me, do you see a difference there? Do you not see that guns are making it so much easier for this? Sure, the mental health issues need to be addressed, but doncha also think that making it harder for people to actually take their own lives by removing the tools they use to do it is also a good freaking idea?

Adino The Eznite · Feb 9, 2020

Kylie said:
Ah, so the Natchez Trace Parkway Bridge has about 30 suicides since 1993 (that's 27 years ago, so about one a year). The Golden gate Bridge has about 30 per year. The other examples you cite are also about 30 per year.

Suicides using guns in the United States are about 22,000 a year.

Tell me, do you see a difference there? Do you not see that guns are making it so much easier for this? Sure, the mental health issues need to be addressed, but doncha also think that making it harder for people to actually take their own lives by removing the tools they use to do it is also a good freaking idea?

In Australia they cant take away a persons firearm if the person does not have a licence, and the firearm is registered. They have no idea where they are. There are many crooks, if not all of them, out there who never handed in firearms during the steal back and they are untraceable. Like the shotgun madman Monise got hold of. Law abiding firearms owners are not the worry. Its the illegal firearms and the criminals who cause all the trouble. My firearms must all be faulty since they never ever jumped out of the safe and killed anyone these past 60 years I have had them.

Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. If they cannot get a Gun, they will use a bridge, a car, gas, a knife, overdose, fire, poison, jump in front of a train, off a cliff, of a cruise ship, even swim out to sea and drown themselves.

Lazarus Long · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
In Australia they cant take away a persons firearm if the person does not have a licence, and the firearm is registered. They have no idea where they are. There are many crooks, if not all of them, out there who never handed in firearms during the steal back and they are untraceable. Like the shotgun madman Monise got hold of. Law abiding firearms owners are not the worry. Its the illegal firearms and the criminals who cause all the trouble. My firearms must all be faulty since they never ever jumped out of the safe and killed anyone these past 60 years I have had them.

Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. If they cannot get a Gun, they will use a bridge, a car, gas, a knife, overdose, fire, poison, jump in front of a train, off a cliff, of a cruise ship, even swim out to sea and drown themselves.

As a general rule crooks shoot crooks and law abiding firearms owners shoot innocents ie women and children.

Kylie · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
In Australia they cant take away a persons firearm if the person does not have a licence, and the firearm is registered. They have no idea where they are. There are many crooks, if not all of them, out there who never handed in firearms during the steal back and they are untraceable. Like the shotgun madman Monise got hold of. Law abiding firearms owners are not the worry. Its the illegal firearms and the criminals who cause all the trouble. My firearms must all be faulty since they never ever jumped out of the safe and killed anyone these past 60 years I have had them.

Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. If they cannot get a Gun, they will use a bridge, a car, gas, a knife, overdose, fire, poison, jump in front of a train, off a cliff, of a cruise ship, even swim out to sea and drown themselves.

Typical of the pro-gun lobby. The same old, "If they don't have a gun, they'll find a way to do it anyway" argument.

Of course, it completely ignores the fact that for most people who decide to take their own lives, it's a thing that, if they can't do it immediately, tends to leave them. A gun allows them to do it immediately, which is why there are so many cases of it. If a person has to spend some time doing it - travelling to a bridge or cliff to jump off, going to the beach and swimming out to sea, finding a lethal dose of some medication, etc - then often the person will change their mind before they pass the point of no return.

Zoii · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
Its the illegal firearms and the criminals who cause all the trouble.

Thats not what our national statistics state. The Australian Institute of Criminology shows that despite Australia's increase in population since 1996 when gun control laws were put in place, there has been a steady decline in deaths by firearms with Domestic Violence and Suicide being the predominate offences using weapons lawfully owned.

Deaths by other means has remained static despite our population increase.

I feel your statement is totally without support from the bureau of statistics or our crime agencies.

Adino The Eznite said:
My firearms must all be faulty since they never ever jumped out of the safe and killed anyone these past 60 years I have had them.

It really doesn't serve your cause to make silly statements. The fact you haven't killed anyone yet is hardly a ringing endorsement giving your previous anti-government rhetoric posted here (and since deleted).

Adino The Eznite said:
Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. If they cannot get a Gun, they will use a bridge, a car, gas, a knife, overdose, fire, poison, jump in front of a train, off a cliff, of a cruise ship, even swim out to sea and drown themselves.

Suicide is a mental health issue, and it terms of managing the risk we look at the means by which suicide occurs - whether this be by a gun or medication.

I feel that we have already made this clear and it is of no point repeating yourself as it doesn't change the facts that methods are used to end life - we happen to be talking about one of those methods - guns - and its a catastrophic method.

Zoii · Feb 9, 2020

Adino The Eznite said:
In Australia they cant take away a persons firearm if the person does not have a licence, and the firearm is registered. They have no idea where they are. There are many crooks, if not all of them, out there who never handed in firearms during the steal back and they are untraceable. Like the shotgun madman Monise got hold of. Law abiding firearms owners are not the worry. Its the illegal firearms and the criminals who cause all the trouble. My firearms must all be faulty since they never ever jumped out of the safe and killed anyone these past 60 years I have had them.

Suicide is not a gun issue, its a mental health issue. If they cannot get a Gun, they will use a bridge, a car, gas, a knife, overdose, fire, poison, jump in front of a train, off a cliff, of a cruise ship, even swim out to sea and drown themselves.

I think what it comes down to is that you do not support Australian gun laws and have an issue with our government in this regard.

You seem more sympathetic to the ways of life in America and Saudi Arabia.

If you do not respect either the institution of government or our gun laws, then I find your position quite un-Australian and wonder why it is you don't seek out Saudi Arabia or USA or Venezuela where you will find greater sympathy towards your desire for open access to guns. But it is quite hard to listen to comments that disrespect what 93% of Australians require and seem oblivious to what decades of Australians have stated loud and clear.

It was also very hard to hear you disrespect those parents who gave testimony at the Port Arthur trial, witnessing their children's death, by saying it was all a conspiracy and was false. I doubt many Australians would respect you for your comments that implied their witness statements must have been a lie.

Clizby WampusCat · Feb 10, 2020

Zoii said:
Australia has learned much from the USA. It has bore witness to the gun deaths in excess of 40000-60000 annually with mass shooting events in excess of 400-700 annually.

Since 2015 there have 107 been shootings within schools.

If the US is going to reduce gun violence we need to know the actual statistics. What you have presented are false. 2017 Statistics are that there were 36,383 deaths from guns in the US, 12,830 (35%) were homicides, 22,274 (61%) were suicides, the rest were law enforcement, unintentional and undetermined.

As far as mass shootings what is your definition? The US has no standard definition of a mass shooting. If you define it as an event where more than 4 people are shot (not needed to be killed) then the worst year in the US was 2017 and there were 18 of these mass shootings.

Also, the perpetrators in many instances were legally prohibited to possess a gun, had prior warning signs, were connected with domestic violence and far deadlier when high capacity magazines are involved.

There is a problem in the US with gun violence but exaggerating the problem does not help to find a solution.

We have observed your carnage and the arguments from US citizens why nothing should change. We are so very grateful to ex-PM John Howard for his strict gun-laws that has spared Australians from such unnecessary pain.

Realizing the truth that the US constitution protects individual gun ownership and the supreme court has upheld this many times is not an excuse. If the US wants gun laws like Australia it has to amend its constitution.

Zoii · Feb 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
If the US is going to reduce gun violence we need to know the actual statistics. What you have presented are false. 2017 Statistics are that there were 36,383 deaths from guns in the US, 12,830 (35%) were homicides, 22,274 (61%) were suicides, the rest were law enforcement, unintentional and undetermined.

As far as mass shootings what is your definition? The US has no standard definition of a mass shooting. If you define it as an event where more than 4 people are shot (not needed to be killed) then the worst year in the US was 2017 and there were 18 of these mass shootings.

Also, the perpetrators in many instances were legally prohibited to possess a gun, had prior warning signs, were connected with domestic violence and far deadlier when high capacity magazines are involved.

There is a problem in the US with gun violence but exaggerating the problem does not help to find a solution.

Realizing the truth that the US constitution protects individual gun ownership and the supreme court has upheld this many times is not an excuse. If the US wants gun laws like Australia it has to amend its constitution.

I couldn't care less about what the US does nor about your constitution. If you want the carnage there to continue then...Totally up to you guys. This has nothing to do with matters in the USA - read the OP. The USA only comes up as a point of reference at times in this thread. But this is about my country, Australia. If you guys are satisfied with the state of affairs re gun deaths and school killings, then fine. It's not the concern of this discussion.

Please understand that just because the US citizens prefer to own and use guns, our culture is quite different in that regards. We fully understand the risk-benefit and have made the decision that the risks far outweigh the benefits. And that is the collective decision of 93% of Australians. The result for us is that we do not have the headaches re gun violence, that you do.

Clizby WampusCat · Feb 10, 2020

Zoii said:
I couldn't care less about what the US does nor about your constitution. If you want the carnage there to continue then...Totally up to you guys.

Then why respond to my post. Was it just to scoreboard?

I actually am identifying the obstacles to a solution. Knowing the actual facts and knowing the actual laws that need to change is needed for clarity to find a solution. It is not saying I want the status quo to continue. If all you care about is emotion, then keep misrepresenting facts, that is what a lot of anti gun activists do here and it is not hurting finding a solution.

This has nothing to do with matters in the USA - read the OP. The USA only comes up as a point of reference at times in this thread. But this is about my country, Australia.

Then why did you respond to my post?

If you guys are satisfied with the state of affairs re gun deaths and school killings, then fine. It's not the concern of this discussion.

This is you showing your uncritical thought process. Show me where I said we were satisfied with the state of affairs. The polls actually show this to be untrue.

Please understand that just because the US citizens prefer to own and use guns, our culture is quite different in that regards.

How do you know this is true? 37% of american households have a gun in them down from 50% in 1967, 30% of US citizens own a gun, 64% of Americans favor stricter gun laws. In 2019 39% of US citizens were satisfied with the current gun laws, 56% were dissatisfied. If you really don't care about the US and gun violence then please stop misrepresenting our problem.

We fully understand the risk-benefit and have made the decision that the risks far outweigh the benefits. And that is the collective decision of 93% of Australians. The result for us is that we do not have the headaches re gun violence, that you do.

We understand the risks, what you don't understand is the huge obstacle to change and that is the US constitution's guarantee of gun ownership.

I am not convinced Australian gun laws would work here or that banning certain types of guns is the solution either, but I am willing to listen.

Darkhorse · Feb 10, 2020

Kylie said:
And in the same time, how many people were killed from gun violence because the good guy with the gun wasn't there?

I don't understand how you can see all this gun violence and decide the best way to combat it is with EASIER access to guns.

How about these facts? Gun Violence Archive How many shootings listed on that website had a GGWAG to stop them? Only a tiny fraction, I bet.

The way to combat it is not necessarily "easier access to guns", but allowing more of the responsible people who want to carry a gun to do so. That makes everyone safer.

Before 1987, only 7 or 8 US states allowed regular citizens to carry concealed guns. Since then, carry laws have expended greatly, and now only 8 states essentially prohibit concealed carry. Violent-crime rates have dropped dramatically during this time.

Kylie said:
And do you think it's a good idea to rely on people who aren't trained to deal with that kind of situation? One of the people you cite as a GGWAG was a woman who started screaming, closed her eyes and started shooting blindly until the gun was empty. Luckily there were only two shots fired by her before she ran out. How easy would it be for a situation like that to turn tragic and have innocent bystanders shot and killed because the GGWAG freaked out and panicked?

Her reaction was totally inappropriate, and (fortunately) very rare. If she's that panic-prone, she should not be carrying a gun.

Virtually all law-abiding gun owners who use their gun in emergency situations demonstrate a high level of composure and restraint. They understand how serious the situation is.

Darkhorse · Feb 10, 2020

Kylie said:
To be fair, I doubt the "good guy with a gun" thing works in Australia either.

But hey, if you got something to show that it does work here in the merry old land of Oz, you go right ahead and put it up for all of us to see, mkay?

As mentioned in my previous post, it works quite well in the USA when it is allowed to be implemented.

I do not presume to tell you what will or won't work in your country.
I wish others here had the same level of decorum.

Clizby WampusCat · Feb 10, 2020

Kylie said:
Typical of the pro-gun lobby. The same old, "If they don't have a gun, they'll find a way to do it anyway" argument.

Of course, it completely ignores the fact that for most people who decide to take their own lives, it's a thing that, if they can't do it immediately, tends to leave them. A gun allows them to do it immediately, which is why there are so many cases of it. If a person has to spend some time doing it - travelling to a bridge or cliff to jump off, going to the beach and swimming out to sea, finding a lethal dose of some medication, etc - then often the person will change their mind before they pass the point of no return.

How does a gun allow them to do it immediately? Doesn't this assume that the person owns a gun? You cannot go get a gun legally any faster that you can get a knife of go jump off a bridge. People have pills to overdose with or knives in their homes more frequently than they have a gun.

Darkhorse · Feb 10, 2020

Kylie said:
If there are between 500,000 and 3 million uses of firearms in a defense situation per year, please provide evidence of this.

These figures are from the CDC report. Other than that, I have no information on how they were determined.

Kylie said:
I agree that there is a cultural aspect - many people in the USA seem to have a culture where a gun is a phallic representation (you gotta admit, it seems to be men who go around shooting places up a lot more than women). That just screams toxic masculinity to me...

It's no secret that men are considerably more violent than women, and there's good reason to believe that at least part of this tendency is intrinsic to male biochemistry.

Whether that violence is "toxic" depends on your perspective. Certainly, violence against innocent people is very wrong. But, like it or not, violence against evil, dangerous people is justified and necessary.

As one of our writers put it: "We sleep safely in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence in our behalf"

Kylie said:
What about all those cases where the little kid finds his mum's gun and accidentally blows her brains out?

Responsible gun owners prevent children from accessing their guns.

My wife and I managed to raise 2 curious boys while carrying our guns regularly.
It isn't difficult with intelligent planning.

tampasteve · Feb 10, 2020

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