Prophecy as it pertains to real time events unfolding now.

Interplanner · Dec 9, 2013

re Jerusalem a praise:
apparently you are unaware of the glory of the "Jerusalem that is above" that is also 'coming down' that is the millions of believers down through time, that is our mother. Gal. 4, Rev. 2, 3, Heb 11, 12. I seriously doubt that Paul, a Jew, would go ahead and refer to it as his mother, only to switch back all over again...

Study up! Avoid the sensational.

riverrat · Dec 9, 2013

ebedmelech said:
You're being evasive...or you really didn't read Ephesians 3 so I'll just lay it out:
Ephesians 3:1-7
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of Gods grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of Gods grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

So Paul just told you "TO BE SPECIFIC" what the mystery of Christ is. You are simply refusing to accept it.

Romans 16 doesn't make the point. Romans 9 does...where Paul quotes Hosea 2 and Isaiah 10.

You're just not making sense. Paul uses the OT and the NT to make his point. Your rule...is void. Mainly because you're making the mistake of looking at this in our time...when you should actually be looking at this through Paul's time. It's NOT a mystery to us because we have the full revelation of God's word in the scriptures. In Paul's time (as he writes), it's not.

The main thing Paul fights against is the Jews not understanding how Gentiles are included and do not have to heed the Law...so it is indeed a mystery to them and also to Gentiles who are aware that Jews view them as unclean.

Why do you continue to try to make Paul to be a liar? The body of Christ is not in the OT and you have not shown that it is. The body of Christ was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul. Paul did not learn it from any man.

ebedmelech · Dec 9, 2013

riverrat said:
Why do you continue to try to make Paul to be a liar? The body of Christ is not in the OT and you have not shown that it is. The body of Christ was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul. Paul did not learn it from any man.

Riverat...I think we've missed one another because you're not understanding the point.

This is what you said that started this:

riverrat said:
The OT cannot be used by the NT for the revelation of the mystery ( Rom 16's finale) since the mystery revealed by Christ to Paul was not in the OT. It had been kept secret since the world began until Christ revealed it to Paul.

I have proved that is not true...so WHAT are you talking about? We are WAAAY past this time that Paul is teaching in...so what you're saying cannot be true because we have the full revelation of God's word. CAN YOU GRASP THAT?

vinsight4u · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
Can you help me to arrive at your conclusion with scripture that I might understand from your point of view?

I think you are actually on to something here..

Especially when I read later on in Ezekiel about the building of the Temple.

I wonder, could it be that the Ezekiel war happens, only for the AC as a Man to bring about peace when its over? Allowing the Jews to build the temple?

Could the coming peace between Palestine and Israel be a front for the coming war?
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Things are really starting to add up..

Are you wanting to understand the seals of Revelation?
The first place I would say to go is Zechariah chapter 5 and look at how that chapter ends. The land being dealt with is Shinar/Babylon. Chapter 6 is just this same prophecy continuing. Zechariah looks - turns - as he is still watching this ephah being carried to where? = it was to be set upon its own base. Thus, the ephah is being carried back to the land of Iraq/Babylon. We are even told why =to build it an house in Shinar.
//To build a kingdom in Shinar - a throne. Looking more at chapter 6 shows that various horses of different colors come on the scene. Where a horse ends up - such as in the north country-would be where someone would get on it to ride it. We are told that the black horses went to the north country. Jeremiah made out the north country as Babylon.

I'll stop for a moment and deal with the two mountains of brass that were seen in chapter 6. I take these to be the land of the Greeks. Brass was used for the third empire in Daniel 2. This would make the north country - Iraq - and the south country - Egypt. The black horses all went to the north country - so in Iraq would be needed a rider/ruler of Iraq to get on the black ones. The third seal is a rider being seen on a black horse.

The white horses followed/behind the black horses, so they too end up in Babylon. A rider would have to get on it in Babylon.

We can now start to see that horses and Babylon seem to be linking up in prophecy. Why is this? Zechariah 5 shows that the land of Shinar has earned a curse on it. This curse was hunting the earth for the guilty nation - and found it was Shinar. This means that the curse must one day befall Shinar - her land must be consumed as to even the timber and the stones of it/just as Babylon had consumed the timber and the stones of the temple of God. Since Babylon was already fallen by the time of Zechariah seeing this vision- Babylon must get a new house. This is the house that the curse will enter into, just as Nebuchadnezzar had entered into the house of God.

===Moving to Daniel 10. This is where Daniel saw a vision, followed days later by another vision /of a certain man. The holy being comes to Daniel to show him what will happen to thy people in the latter days. He tells him that the vision is going to happen - befall thy people in the latter days. The holy being does not tell about the vision in chapter 10. He does this later, in chapter 11. We need to bring Daniel 10:14 and 11:14 together as to - they are about - thy people.

riverrat · Dec 9, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Riverat...I think we've missed one another because you're not understanding the point.

This is what you said that started this:

I have proved that is not true...so WHAT are you talking about? We are WAAAY past this time that Paul is teaching in...so what you're saying cannot be true because we have the full revelation of God's word. CAN YOU GRASP THAT?

If you have proved it true then you have proved that Paul is a liar. CAY YOU GRASP THAT? What else did Paul lie about?

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Are you wanting to understand the seals of Revelation?
The first place I would say to go is Zechariah chapter 5 and look at how that chapter ends. The land being dealt with is Shinar/Babylon. Chapter 6 is just this same prophecy continuing. Zechariah looks - turns - as he is still watching this ephah being carried to where? = it was to be set upon its own base. Thus, the ephah is being carried back to the land of Iraq/Babylon. We are even told why =to build it an house in Shinar.
//To build a kingdom in Shinar - a throne. Looking more at chapter 6 shows that various horses of different colors come on the scene. Where a horse ends up - such as in the north country-would be where someone would get on it to ride it. We are told that the black horses went to the north country. Jeremiah made out the north country as Babylon.

I'll stop for a moment and deal with the two mountains of brass that were seen in chapter 6. I take these to be the land of the Greeks. Brass was used for the third empire in Daniel 2. This would make the north country - Iraq - and the south country - Egypt. The black horses all went to the north country - so in Iraq would be needed a rider/ruler of Iraq to get on the black ones. The third seal is a rider being seen on a black horse.

The white horses followed/behind the black horses, so they too end up in Babylon. A rider would have to get on it in Babylon.

We can now start to see that horses and Babylon seem to be linking up in prophecy. Why is this? Zechariah 5 shows that the land of Shinar has earned a curse on it. This curse was hunting the earth for the guilty nation - and found it was Shinar. This means that the curse must one day befall Shinar - her land must be consumed as to even the timber and the stones of it/just as Babylon had consumed the timber and the stones of the temple of God. Since Babylon was already fallen by the time of Zechariah seeing this vision- Babylon must get a new house. This is the house that the curse will enter into, just as Nebuchadnezzar had entered into the house of God.

===Moving to Daniel 10. This is where Daniel saw a vision, followed days later by another vision /of a certain man. The holy being comes to Daniel to show him what will happen to thy people in the latter days. He tells him that the vision is going to happen - befall thy people in the latter days. The holy being does not tell about the vision in chapter 10. He does this later, in chapter 11. We need to bring Daniel 10:14 and 11:14 together as to - they are about - thy people.

Got some things to do around the house for my wife, but Ill be back to reply..

Youve given me some good stuff to ponder over..

thx!

ebedmelech · Dec 9, 2013

riverrat said:
If you have proved it true then you have proved that Paul is a liar. CAY YOU GRASP THAT? What else did Paul lie about?

You can try to say I called Paul a liar all you want. What I'm really getting...is that it's the way you're looking at this in what you're saying. So I'll say it like this:

*When Paul was writing the scriptures through revelation from God, IT WAS A MYSTERY.

*Now that we have the written word...it's not a mystery...because Paul has revealed it in scripture.

In conclusion...what ever point you wish to make...is NOT a point!

parousia70 · Dec 9, 2013

riverrat said:
If you have proved it true then you have proved that Paul is a liar. CAY YOU GRASP THAT? What else did Paul lie about?

Well, according to you Riverrat, Paul LIED when he claimed the gospel HAD BEEN PREACHED to the WHOLE WORLD by the mid 60's AD:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

What else do you claim Paul Lied about?

Or maybe you claim he was simply mistaken?

If so, what else do you claim Paul was mistaken about?
I mean, it isn't like he was writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit or anything so i suppose he could have made several mistakes like thinking the Gospel had been preached to every creature in his lifetime.... oh.... oops... scratch that.

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

parousia70 said:
Well, according to you Riverrat, Paul LIED when he claimed the gospel HAD BEEN PREACHED to the WHOLE WORLD by the mid 60's AD:
Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;
What else do you claim Paul Lied about?

Or maybe you claim he was simply mistaken?

Who is Paul talking to in these verses?

parousia70 · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
Who is Paul talking to in these verses?

All of us.

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

parousia70 said:
All of us.

I agree.

And has the Gospel, in fact been spread to all the world as Paul said it has?

Yes or no?

parousia70 · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
I agree.

And has the Gospel, in fact been spread to all the world as Paul said it has?

Yes or no?

ABSOLUTELY!
Paul did NOT get it wrong.

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

parousia70 said:
ABSOLUTELY!
Paul did NOT get it wrong.

So in our current reality, we can both assume that if the Gospel indeed was spread in his time, that it has also been spread in our time right?

What I mean is that the Gospel has gone out to the entire world, and to all nations today correct?

parousia70 · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
So in our current reality, we can both assume that if the Gospel indeed was spread in his time, that it has also been spread in our time right?

What I mean is that the Gospel has gone out to the entire world, and to all nations today correct?

Not in the Context Jesus and Paul meant when Jesus said it must go to the whole world before the end [of the Mosaic Age] could come, and Paul affirmed it had by the 60's.

The thing about the Gospel is, IT IS EVERLASTING.
There will BE NO END to it's purpose.

What do you think it's purpose is?

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

parousia70 said:
Not in the Context Jesus and Paul meant when Jesus said it must go to the whole world before the end [of the Mosaic Age] could come, and Paul affirmed it had by the 60's.

The thing about the Gospel is, IT IS EVERLASTING.
There will BE NO END to it's purpose.

What do you think it's purpose is?

Red herrings aside, lets get back to the issue at hand.. The Gospel is everlasting, no one here is contesting that..

Back to what we were discussing..

So what context was Jesus and Paul referring to?

If the Gospel went out to the whole world, then how can it be "undone" if Paul said it went out to the entire world already?

Can you answer me on these?

parousia70 · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
Red herrings aside, lets get back to the issue at hand.. The Gospel is everlasting, no one here is contesting that..

Actually, you are. You claim that there is a soon coming day that the Gospel will CEASE to function in it's sole purpose for existence, which is to CALL SINNERS TO SALVATION.

So what context was Jesus and Paul referring to?

The Roman Empire of the 1st century.

If the Gospel went out to the whole world, then how can it be "undone" if Paul said it went out to the entire world already?

Can you answer me on these?

See above.

riverrat · Dec 9, 2013

ebedmelech said:
You can try to say I called Paul a liar all you want. What I'm really getting...is that it's the way you're looking at this in what you're saying. So I'll say it like this:

*When Paul was writing the scriptures through revelation from God, IT WAS A MYSTERY.

*Now that we have the written word...it's not a mystery...because Paul has revealed it in scripture.

In conclusion...what ever point you wish to make...is NOT a point!

The point I am making and which you do not understand is that the mystery is not in the OT.
Of course we have the mystery now! Christ revealed in to Paul and Paul revealed it to us.
Why is this so hard for you?

ebedmelech · Dec 9, 2013

riverrat said:
The point I am making and which you do not understand is that the mystery is not in the OT.
Of course we have the mystery now! Christ revealed in to Paul and Paul revealed it to us.
Why is this so hard for you?

That's the flaw though. Since Paul has revealed it in the scriptures...one can easily go to the OT and find it. That's why I gave you Isaiah 65 and Hosea 2...Paul told us how to find it...

riverrat · Dec 9, 2013

ebedmelech said:
That's the flaw though. Since Paul has revealed it in the scriptures...one can easily go to the OT and find it. That's why I gave you Isaiah 65 and Hosea 2...Paul told us how to find it...

No, your logic is flawed. Man did not reveal the mystery to Paul, God did. Isaiah and Hosea could not have revealed it to Paul as they are only men.
The mystery is not in Isaiah or Hosea anyway.
Where does Paul say the mystery is in Isaiah and Hosea 2?
Paul said the mystery had been kept secret. He did not say the location of the mystery had been kept secret.

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 9, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
So what context was Jesus and Paul referring to?

You then Reply..

parousia70 said:
The Roman Empire of the 1st century.

So from your interpretation of context, you are saying that Paul in fact means the Roman Empire of the fist Century, and not actually the "world' as you are stating here when you accosted and berated another Christian for saying the same thing you are essentially..

parousia70 said:
Well, according to you Riverrat, Paul LIED when he claimed the gospel HAD BEEN PREACHED to the WHOLE WORLD by the mid 60's AD:

Hypocrite..

Let the proof of your own mouth show for all to see..

I walked you by the hand into your own hypocrisy and you didnt even have a clue, you are unfit to debate me.

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