Proof Genesis is not Literal in every sense...

2Pillars said:

Dear Readers,


I always support whatever I claim or assert on this board with Scripture.

On other hand, Evolution can NOT tell us how and when we became human. Human Intelligence is Not Evolved, and there is No Data which shows this. Human Intelligence is inherited from another Human.

Since Nature produced No Humans, and does not possess Human Intelligence, it is ridiculous to Speculate that we Inherited our Human Intelligence from Mindless Nature.

Therefore, if we believe Jesus was the True Light (John 1:9) and "THE" source of Life (John 1:4; 14:6) then the doctrine of Evolution is WRONG and FLAWED!

Beware of the ETB's (Evolution True Believers), for MANY of them mask themselves as Christians.

God Bless

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Nonsense! (And insulting to boot.)

Tenacious-D said:

Nonsense!

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Dear Tenacious,

We inherited our Human Intelligence from Adam, the first Human.

There is NO Evidence that Mindless Nature evolved it. Such Nonsense should not be forced upon our children, as it is today, in the public schools.

Genesis 1:21 tells us that every living thing which moveth, originated in the water. Science has finally agreed, after thousands of years of foolish speculation. How did Moses get it right?


God Bless

Dear Readers,

After 4.53 Billion years, Evolution had Not produced even 1 Human Civilization. Suddenly, some 10,000 + - years ago, Noah arrived on this Planet. Less than 100 miles south of the mountains of Ararat, the 1st evidences of Human Civilization are observed.

It is the land of Mesopotamia which contains this Earth's first Human Civilization. NO man could have told us that our 1st Civilization is traceable to Noah and his grandsons, but God told us this more than 3,000 years ago.

For years, Evols have searched in vain for a Human Civilization older than that which is written in Scripture. There is NONE, because Noah brought Human Intelligence and Civilization to this Planet, after their World was destroyed by Water.

This, of course, means that Macro is a Lie and God's Holy Word is the Truth. We did not Evolve our Human Intelligence. We inherited it from Adam, exactly as God told us we did.

If Noah had not left his world and came to this Planet, we would still be innocent Apes, because Evolution does NOT produce Humans. Human Intelligence must be inherited from another Human.


God Bless

Yes, but "your take" was on what we believe, say and do. And each one of them were not true and you know it.

As for your last comment, you are saying that some who call themselves Christians are not Christians. That is against the rules and very presumptuous. Your entire post was in regards to those who post here that believe in evolution. Are you going to say that this one comment was about some others somewhere else. I am not sure whether you were talking about me in particular, but speaking that way about any fellow Christian on this forum is not allowed.

Also, where is the conflict between evolution and Jesus being the source of life? Evolution says nothing about the source of life.

2Pillars said:

For years, Evols have searched in vain for a Human Civilization older than that which is written in Scripture. There is NONE, because Noah brought Human Intelligence and Civilization to this Planet, after their World was destroyed by Water.

This, of course, means that Macro is a Lie and God's Holy Word is the Truth.

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I'm sorry brother but that is a completely ridiculous argument. You simply made a statement (which may or may not be true I do not know) and then attached a conclusion to it which has no relation, logical or otherwise, to the statement itself.

Hypothetically speaking, suppose there was a real Noah. How does the fact that he existed and indirectly brought about the first noticeable civilization disprove macroevolution?

GodAtWorkToday said:

@Genez. One problem with that quoted text (which is otherwise very well written), is that this gap-theory between v1 & v2 has one serious flaw.

An old earth is required for both startlight travel from distant stars and for the time necessary for evolutionary forces to take a simple life form and evolve it into a complex animal or human. The gap-theory might be useful for the former, but doesn't explain the latter, since these things were created on the later days of creation.

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There is a lot of confusion in what you say. But just to stick to one point (I am not even sure if you properly understand the Gap Theory) the present creation we now see was created on the later days of creation. Genesis speaks of the present creation. And? What you say about starlight travel is discounting God's ability to work outside of the laws we live by. God parted the Red Sea. Jesus healed instantly those incurably situated up until that moment. But, I am digressing.

The old earth is not required for anything you mentioned. The stars were made to bear light for this creation. The old earth is required for having previous creations with different eco systems for light. But, this is a digression, as well.

Did you read that web page link I provided you?

Also the text does not at all indicate that God started a process and left it to run its course. It says that God directly created these things, and that they would reproduce after their own kind.

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I agree. For this present creation that is the case. Just as He had done for the other creations that preceeded this one. The ones we find fossil remains from.

I can see the logic of a long age between 1 & 2, but it does not go far enough to explain the rest. Mind you while several scholars have over time pondered these things and arrived at differing conclusions, it is only in the present time, that we feel the necessity to try to shoehorn the Genesis account into a scientific framework that while called theory, many would debate is still hypothetical.

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That confirms that you did not carefully read that link.

For scholars who understood the ancient languages were (well before Darwin was born) perplexed as to why the Scriptures indicate that we do not live in the first creation. Origen was from the first century! He saw that the earth was destroyed before this creation took place! Did you note this? Scholars were onto this long before the theory of evolution was ever dreamed up. All the fossils did when they were discovered and categorized, was to give defining focus to what those past scholars could not be certain of as to why the Scriptures say what it does.

I think its best have a look this time?

Link: http://www.ucg.org/booklets/BT/versesofgenesis.htm



And, the controversy over the tense of "hayah" is a misplaced priority for debate. It does not matter what tense it really is. The Hebrew concludes the same thing either way. I can show you how.

In the mean time, YEC's and TOE's are like the somewhat humorous fable of the blind men each grabbing a different part of the elephant and coming to contradictory conclusions. Each was sure by what they contacted with, that they knew what the elephant was. Only the one who could see (and step back) could really tell for sure.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Vance said:

Also, where is the conflict between evolution and Jesus being the source of life? Evolution says nothing about the source of life.

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But it would sure like to, so as to totally remove God from the picture. Give 'em another 50-100 years and you will see this fallacy preached.

genez said:

For scholars who understood the ancient languages were (well before Darwin was born) perplexed as to why the Scriptures indicate that we do not live in the first creation. Origen was from the first century! He saw that the earth was destroyed before this creation took place! Did you note this?

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I see a lot of this guys work revered by many Christians who promote evolution as consistent with the Bible. However, he is but one scholar who may be right, but equally may be wrong. Just because he expressed the opinions that he did, does not make it so.

Vance said:

Yes, but "your take" was on what we believe, say and do. And each one of them were not true and you know it..

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Dear Vance,

Again, I am confuse with your conflicting statement above!

IF my take "was on what you believe, say and do," then, are you saying you hold the same doctrines with ETB's - who take the Bible as allegory and Christ as a myth?

And If what I posted is what you say and do, then, how could you accuse me of misrepresenting it?

Vance said:

As for your last comment, you are saying that some who call themselves Christians are not Christians. That is against the rules and very presumptuous. Your entire post was in regards to those who post here that believe in evolution. Are you going to say that this one comment was about some others somewhere else. I am not sure whether you were talking about me in particular, but speaking that way about any fellow Christian on this forum is not allowed.

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I thought I was very specific in mentioning the ETB's (Evolution True Believers) DOCTRINES, was I not? I did not mention anybody personally nor said anything about TE's doctrine specifically, did I?

Perhaps, it would help us communicate better if you would just calm down and come up with a rebuttal instead of attacking the poster personally whenever you disagree with me.

I may be wrong with my opinion or understanding of the matter but I don't intentionally lie! And that's the TRUTH!


God Bless

2Pillars:

You made the following six statements about 'evols who post on this board', which can only mean this Origins Theology forum, which can thus only mean the Theistic Evolutionists:

1. we have a faith, or religious belief in mortal man's science.
2. we attempt to show how it happened without God having anything to do with it.
3. we profess ourselves to be wiser than God
4. we dismiss His Holy Word
5. we say that Scripture is "nothing more" than allegory, story or myth.
6. we believe God lied to us

Now, you have been on this Origins Theology board long enough to have read most of our positions, which include NONE of the above. So, you must know that when you say them, they are not true. So, why do you say them?

Saying something when you know it is not true is lying. Saying something without determining whether it is true or not is negligent misrepresentation, which is also considered a form of deceit, at least here in the US.

And, as for the ETB's, I am not sure who are referring to, but since you are on this Origins Theology forum, it can only refer to some people here who are saying claim to be Christians and accept evolution (TE's), but are not really Christians. Since there are only a handful of regular posters here who are theistic evolutionists, and I know every one of them, I can also say that this is not only against the rules, but it also another falsehood.

GodAtWorkToday said:

But it would sure like to, so as to totally remove God from the picture. Give 'em another 50-100 years and you will see this fallacy preached.

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But you are still working under the assumption that scientists are out to remove God from the picture. All science is trying to do is find out how things happened. To the extent that they believe in God, they believe that whatever they find was the action of God. Those that aren't Christians already assume God was not in the picture.

There are, indeed, some scientists who are militant atheists and would love to prove God can not exist. But there are atheistic historians who would like to use the history of the Church (pogroms, inquisitions, corruption, etc) to prove that Christianity is false. The fact that their motives are wrong does not mean that the facts they attempt to misuse are not true (the progroms, inquisitions, corruption, etc, all actually existed). Anyone can take true facts and theories and attempt to misuse them, but this does not make the facts they point to untrue.

[Sign]MOD HAT ON[/Sign]2 Pillars, let me caution you against saying that there are ETB's in your words who mask themselves as Christians. You either need to explain that in such a way that you are definitively NOT calling into question the Christianity and faith of TE's or you need to quit saying it. YOu are posting in the Christian Only area, not the open creation and evolution area--everyone here professes to be a Christian, we just hold to different interpretations
[Sign]MOD HAT OFF[/Sign]

2Pillars said:

My Take:

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Yes it is!

Most of the Evols, on this board, preach their Religion, or Belief, or Faith in mortal man's science, as fact. They attempt to show that Macro-Evolution has happened, and the Creator has nothing to do with the process.

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None that I have seen in the Origins Theology forum have done so--NOT ONE. Every single TE here believes that God created all life.

Professing themselves to be wiser than God, they dismiss His Holy Word, as nothing more than Allegory, teaching stories, or Myth.

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That would be wrong again. Please read up on the posts here and the beliefs of the TE's before saying untruthful things like this.

They claim that God used Evolution as His method of producing life,

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Wrong again. Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of life--and it has nothing to do with God--nothing.

while ignoring His Holy Word, which says that God CREATED.

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wrong again. We do not ever ignore His word. We all believe that God created

IOW, they believe God just lied to us when He told us that Creatures were confined to his "kinds".

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wrong again. We do not believe God lied, either in his word as revealed in Scripture or in his word as revealed in creation.

It's too bad their flawed definitions do not have evidence to support their wild assumptions -- thus, will always remain as "theory".

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Scientifically wrong and a mistatement of fact

If one believes Jesus was the True Light (John 1:9) and "THE" source of Life (John 1:4; 14:6) then the doctrine of Evolution is WRONG and FLAWED!

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Wrong again--I believe that Jesus is the source of ALL LIFE, and I STILL accept evolution as a highly probable method used by God in the development of humanity.

Beware of the ETB's (Evolution True Believers), for MANY of them mask themselves as Christians.

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You've already seen my response to this--if not look above.

God Bless

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Thanks, you too

Dear Vance, are you referring to this post...

2Pillars said:

My Take:

Most of the Evols, on this board, preach their Religion, or Belief, or Faith in mortal man's science, as fact. They attempt to show that Macro-Evolution has happened, and the Creator has nothing to do with the process.

Professing themselves to be wiser than God, they dismiss His Holy Word, as nothing more than Allegory, teaching stories, or Myth. They claim that God used Evolution as His method of producing life, while ignoring His Holy Word, which says that God CREATED.

IOW, they believe God just lied to us when He told us that Creatures were confined to his "kinds". It's too bad their flawed definitions do not have evidence to support their wild assumptions -- thus, will always remain as "theory".

If one believes Jesus was the True Light (John 1:9) and "THE" source of Life (John 1:4; 14:6) then the doctrine of Evolution is WRONG and FLAWED!

Beware of the ETB's (Evolution True Believers), for MANY of them mask themselves as Christians.

God Bless

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I am sorry Vance, it might be the case that your pre-concieve notions is blurring reading comprehension, since, I don't see anything wrong with it! And I don't mean what I just said to be offensive to you, really!

Certainly, you could see that the context of the post was address to my fellow Christians on this board, don't you? What's wrong with it then. The TE's doctrine are not even mentioned anywhere there as you claimed it to be.

Again, the post was meant to serve as a warning to my fellow Christians -- to beware of the "Evolution True Believers" (ETBs) who don't believe in the Holy Word of God and take the position that the Christ is a myth.

Please read the post again, only this time, try not to be the "catcher" or paranoid to those who disagree with your faith and put more meaning than what was said.

In other words, please don't feed me with your distorted ASSUMPTION accusing me of lying! I will appreciate that. Thanks.

God Bless

herev said:

[Sign]MOD HAT ON[/Sign]2 Pillars, let me caution you against saying that there are ETB's in your words who mask themselves as Christians. You either need to explain that in such a way that you are definitively NOT calling into question the Christianity and faith of TE's or you need to quit saying it. YOu are posting in the Christian Only area, not the open creation and evolution area--everyone here professes to be a Christian, we just hold to different interpretations
[Sign]MOD HAT OFF[/Sign]

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Dear herev-MOD,

Now, I see more clearly why Vance is bending out of shape about my posting!

While accordingly, this area is a only for "Christians, not the open creation and evolution area", as you made it clear to me, I believe I made myself clear to Vance that I was not even referring to TE's doctrinal faith, repeatedly!!!

In fact I also explain to Vance that the post was to SERVE AS A WARNING to my fellow Christian about the Evolution True Believer's doctrines which contradict the Holy Word of God, as I explained in my original post.

Anyway, thank you for your advise. Point well taken!

BTW, what would be the definition of MODs in distinguishing the difference between words referring to "this board", "this forum" and "this thread"? Thanks.

God Bless

Exactly who are you talking about when you say "evols on this board"?

The only people who believe in evolution on this board are the theistic evolutionists. So, who could you be referring to other than the TEs?

Exactly who are you describing with those six statements? Which "evols" on this Christians only forum?

I see you acknowledge some type of mistake, but I am still wondering what the mistake was exactly.

2Pillars said:

Anyway, thank you for your advise. Point well taken!

BTW, what would be the definition of MODs in distinguishing the difference between words referring to "this board", "this forum" and "this thread"? Thanks.

God Bless

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it's not so much the definition of those, but
board or site, usually refers to Christianforums.com
Forum--is the particular area--in this case--Origins Theology
Thread is the individual set of posts, such as "Proof Genesis is not literal in every sense"
The problem here is that whether intending to or not, when posting as you did in this FORUM, you insinuate that those who are ETB's are those who post here who adhere to evolutionary theory as a means of God's developing humanity as wearing a mask of Christianity, rather than actually being Christian.
Since those who do adhere to evolution and are Christian are Theisitic Evolutionists, your comments will be quite difficult to defend as not being against an entire group here on CF.
You will not be allowed to make such insinuations about your fellow believers.

herev said:

it's not so much the definition of those, but
board or site, usually refers to Christianforums.com
Forum--is the particular area--in this case--Origins Theology
Thread is the individual set of posts, such as "Proof Genesis is not literal in every sense".

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Dear herev,

I see, then I was right all alone when I referred my "MY TAKE" and concerns about the "ETB's" on THIS BOARD in general not on this "forum" specifically as Vance would like others to believe - TWISTING my wordings intentionally!

herev said:

The problem here is that whether intending to or not, when posting as you did in this FORUM, you insinuate that those who are ETB's are those who post here who adhere to evolutionary theory as a means of God's developing humanity as wearing a mask of Christianity, rather than actually being Christian.

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I agree, however, the post was only intended to SERVE as a WARNING to my fellow Christians, based upon my concerns and take (opinion) which is also related to the subject matter of this "forum" am I correct?

Therefore, I still see Vance to be way out of line -- being presumptuous and lied about my intention in spite of my repeated clarificatory statement given to resolve his concerns. He should attack or deal with the issue at hand and not the poster personally.

Thank you so much for your understanding.


God Bless

I still don't get who you were referring to on this board, if not the TE's. The Origins Theology board is a Christians-only board, so I am still at a loss. And the six statements you make simply make no sense in regards to non-Christians even on another board, since no one would expect anything different from a non-Christian, so your warning would be moot.

But if you are going to assert that your post was meant to describe non-Christians only, then fine. You would agree, then, that none of those statements apply to the TE's on this board?