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Progs Misrepresent the Trads

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mva1985

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The progs continue to misrepresent the trads in saying that we believe that we are saved by our works.

This is completely untrue. Traditional Adventists do not believe that they are saved by works - PERIOD!!!!

I think this one verse sums it up pretty simply as to the belief of trads concerning how they are saved.

Eph 2:8-10
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
 

annie1speed

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Hi MVA,

I'm not a Prog and I'm not a Trad, I'm just a visitor who likes to hang around who can see both sides of the issue.

The progs continue to misrepresent the trads in saying that we believe that we are saved by our works.


Why make a blanket statement? Some do, but some don't.

This is completely untrue. Traditional Adventists do not believe that they are saved by works - PERIOD!!!!

I don't doubt this, and the more reasonable of the Progressives probably don't doubt it either.

I think this one verse sums it up pretty simply as to the belief of trads concerning how they are saved.

That is an excellent verse. Are you implying that any of the Progressives would disagree with this verse? I think many of them would point to this same verse to show how we are saved.


You are usually one of the more balanced posters on this forum. Maybe you shouldn't make posts in the middle of the night.

to you,

Annie
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I think MVA is responding to our critcism of ontheDL's comment about working out your salvation with fear and trembling. Of course he sort of turns things on their head because we noted that that is used as a verse taken out of context and we noted it proper perspective. Because we did that and the Tsda who made the statement had nothing further to say he feels it is appropriate to make a thread stating his own misconception about PSDA's.

Not all that surprising in some ways as the discussion process here has failed when dealing with many here.
 
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DeanM

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There are certainly differences.

There are more commonalities.

Blanket accusations merely put others on the defensive. Perhaps one could site a particular scripture and ask how others interpret it, rather than telling everyone how they interpret it?

Then, if you disagree with someone's answer, you might wish to discuss that answer with that person, and not their group?

Finger-pointing does not bode well for discussion.

The name of this thread alone is an example of what I'm talking about.
 
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OntheDL

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Who would like to accuse Jesus a teacher of salvation by works?

"Not everyone who says to me LORD LORD will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father who is heaven."

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Who were like to accuse the apostles teachers of salvation by works?

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead."

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."



It's true there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, but it does not mean there is nothing required of us in the salvation process.

If you drive a car down the road and the hydraulic brake fails, there is nothing you can do to stop the speeding car. However the hydraulic brake by itself does not stop the car. You have to press down on the pedal first. The holy spirit is that empowering agent.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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mva

I must step and correct you here. the offical SDA postion of the historics/trad is that our works do save us. The fact that you don't believe that is saying your are not a traditional but a conservative.
 
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OntheDL

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mva

I must step and correct you here. the offical SDA postion of the historics/trad is that our works do save us. The fact that you don't believe that is saying your are not a traditional but a conservative.

Can you post a link to the "official" historics/trad SDAs' position of salvation by works?

I didn't know historic/ traditional SDAs have a stated, separate official position.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Can you post a link to the "official" historics/trad SDAs' position of salvation by works?

I didn't know historic/ traditional SDAs have a stated, separate official position.
That was one of the other interesting things in the Valuegenesis study. Though I don't think I have put that part on my blog yet. When the kids in Adventist schools were asked it came out to about 50% were salvation by works oriented. Unlike the other things I have mentioned such as EGW and remnant the older the students get the less they believe in righteousness by works (i.e. they become more salvation/righteousness by grace) whereas for EGW and the Sanctuary doctrine the older they get the less they believe in those doctrines.

So you can say the church does not teach righteousness by works but somehow that is what our kids have learned. Very clearly it is still something taught in the Adventist church at least by a good portion of people or we would not see those kinds of results.
 
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OntheDL

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Valuegenesis was conducted/led by outsider(s, catholics) who does not understand/share what Adventism actually teaches and whose conclusion may not reflect reality. Do mainstream christians view adventists who keep the sabbath and consume vegetarian diet doing so for salvation purpose? Probably.

I can't do anything who observes or learns Adventism believes it teaches salvation by work. But I don't teach it. And I haven't met any that does. You can't find a quote from EGW or from the sanctuary message that suggest such doctrine.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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You are so wrong, When you speak out of such ignorance you only do yourself disservice.

http://www.lasierra.edu/centers/hcym/

They did use at least one Non Adventist Statistician in the study however because they wanted to make sure that it was not one sided and to allow for a more independent analysis. But it was an Adventist Study of Adventist Students in Adventist Schools.

The executive director was the person who presented the information at the Adventist Forum. Bailey Gillespie who is a Professor and La Sierra as well as a former Adventist Pastor. Valuegenesis was a project of the Adventist NAD.

Maybe you can understand why I am so skeptical of your statement DJ.
 
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OntheDL

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Maybe you should do some honest research before you call on someone else's ignorance.

The terminology of attaching genesis to another word originated from Teilhard de Chardin, heard of that name? A influential Jesuit.

The ValueGenesis study was funded by the Lily Endowment Grant which aims at bring about ecumenical movement of uniting Catholics with protestants. (see quote)

Here is the resume of M. J Donahue, a Jesuit professor who led the ValueGenesis studies (1&2). Not the additional non-SDA researcher as you put it. He was the lead statistician. I'll block out the personal info from the resume. Added comments in the [].

Michael J. Donahue, M.S., Ph.D.
Institute for the Psychological Sciences
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX@mac.com
XXXXXXXX ext. 105
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX@ipsciences.edu

Employment History
+ Associate Professor, Director of Research Training, Institute for the Psychological Sciences [Catholic], Arlington, Virginia, July 2005 - present
+ Independent Research Consultant, January 2004 - June 2005
+ Associate Professor, Azusa Pacific University, Department of Graduate Psychology, September 1999 - December 2003
+ Independent Research Consultant, June 1995 - September 1999
+ Research Scientist, Search Institute, Minneapolis, Minnesota, January 1984 - June 1995 . Duties: Project management, research and evaluation design, data analysis and interpretation, report writing for professional and popular audiences .

Education
Postdoctoral fellow, Brigham Young University
, Provo, Utah, August 1981 - August 1983. Research Director: Allen E. Bergin
Ph.D., Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, August 1981
Major professor: Joseph F. Rychlak
MS, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, May 1979
Major professor: James J. Jaccard
….
BS, Honors, magna cum laude, Departmental Honors Graduate in Psychology, Loyola University of Chicago. June 1976

….
Awards and Honors

Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion
, cited for "outstanding service," manuscript review, 1991-2
David Ross Summer Research Fellowship, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, 1981
Member, Alpha Sigma Nu, National Jesuit Honor Society, 1976
Member, Psi Chi, National Honor Society in Psychology, 1975
….
Professional Experience and Interests:
Teaching Experience
Graduate student, full responsibility, Purdue University, 1981
Undergraduate courses: General Social Psychology
Adjunct faculty member, College of St. Thomas, St. Paul, Minnesota, 1988 - 1992
….
Adjunct faculty member
, University of St. Mary, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Summer, 1996
….
Associate Professor
, Azusa Pacific University (1999-2003)
….

Teaching Interests
….

Professional Experience and Interests


Faculty / University Service
Secretary, Doctoral Studies Council, Azusa Pacific University (APU) Faculty Senate, 2003.
….

Research Experience

Valuegenesis2
Ten-year follow-up survey of students in the schools of the North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Duties: Lead statistician. Sampling, consultant to survey construction. Presentations to client audiences. Employed by John Hancock Center for Youth Ministry, La Sierra University, Riverside, CA. V. Bailey. Gillespie, Director. Development of survey service. 1999-present
….
1992-1995. Funded by a grant from the Lily Foundation, Indianapolis, IN. ValuegenesisA survey of students, parents, staff, and pastors in the schools of the North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as a part of a larger program of self- evaluation and renewal. Duties: Lead statistician. Sampling, consultant to survey construction. Presentations to client audiences. Development of a survey service to individual schools based on a shortened version of the survey. Funded by John Hancock Center for Stephen Sundborg, S.J.[S.J stands for Society of Jesus, a.k.a. the Jesuits], president of Seattle University, commented, "I am deeply thankful and greatly encouraged by this grant....[from] The Lilly Endowment grant...." Loretta Jancoski, dean of the university's School of Theology and Ministry, explained that the grant provides resources to move forward in the school's partnerships with the Catholic Archdiocese of Seattle and ten Protestant denominations: "It will fund curriculum, formation, and worship that roots students in their particular faith traditions but also calls them to a lived ecumenism," Jancoski stated."

Research Experience

Youth Ministry, La Sierra University [an SDA], Riverside, CA. V. Bailey Gillespie, Director. 1992-1996.
Advisory role to ADVANCE, a parallel study of Hispanic youth in Adventist schools Advisory role to the Australian Valuegenesis project
….
…. Saint Paul- Minneapolis Archdiocesan Youth Faith Formation Survey. Representative survey of youth involved in Catholic, parish-based religious education programs. Survey design and sampling, data analysis, report writing, 1991-1995..., Survey of lay religious education staffs in parishes of the Catholic Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis....,
….

….

Publications
Articles in Refereed Journals
….
Donahue, M. J. (1993). Prevalence and correlates of New Age beliefs in six Protestant denominations. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 31, 177-184.
….
Donahue, M. J., & Kijai, J. (1993). Researching faith maturity: Questions on methods and findings of Valuegenesis. [i.e. the SDA Education Study] Journal of Research on Christian Education, 2(1), 85-92.


Donahue, M. J. (1993). Reply to Jerome Thayer. [Reply to “Measuring faith maturity: Reevaluating Valuegenesis and development of a denomination-specific scale . [i.e. the SDA Education Study], pp. 93-113, same issue]. Journal of Research on Christian Education, 2(1), 115-118.
….
Books
Gillespie, V. B., with Donahue, M. J., Gane, B. & Boyatt, E. (2004) Valuegenesis series: Ten years later: A study of two generations [OF SDAs]. Riverside, California: Hancock Publications.

Book Reviews
….
Donahue, M. J. (1997). Review of the book From the ashes: making sense of Waco. Journal of Psychology and Theology, 24, 340-341.
….

Donahue, M. J. (1994). Review of the books Encountering MARY: From La Salette to Medjugorje, and Madonnas that maim: Popular Catholicism in Italy since the fifteenth

Guerra, M. J. (1993). Dollars and sense: Catholic high schools and their finances 1992.

Washington, DC: National Catholic Educational Association.
Guerra, M. J., & Donahue, M. J. (1990). Dollars and sense: Catholic high schools and their finances 1990. Washington, DC: National Catholic Educational Association.

Guerra, M. J., Donahue, M. J., & Benson, P. L. (1990). The heart of the matter: The effects of Catholic high schools on student values, beliefs, and behaviors. Washington, DC: National Catholic Educational Association.
….
Donahue, M. J. (1992a-c). Project Affirmation: Valuegenesis college report. Minneapolis, MN: Search Institute. [Separate data collections and reports for Andrews University, and Southern and Oakwood College.
….
Technical Reports
Benson, P. L., & Donahue, M. J. (1991). Project Affirmation: Valuegenesis: Report 3. A study of school quality. Silver Springs, MD: General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

Donahue, M. J., & Benson, P. L. (1991a-g). Project Affirmation: Valuegenesis data summary. Silver Springs, MD: General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

Benson, P. L., & Donahue, M. J. (1990). Project Affirmation:Valuegenesis: Report 1. A study of the influence of family, church, and school on the faith, values, and commitment of Adventist youth. Silver Springs, MD: General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
….
Presentations: Professional Conventions
….
Donahue, M. J. (2001, August). Religious orientation and development amongst Adventist youth. In Religious - spiritual development in adolescence. Symposium presented at the meeting of the American Psychological Association, San Francisco, CA. (ERIC Document Reproduction Service No. ED 458 508; CG 031 399).

Invited and Other Professional Presentations

* Gillespie, W. B., & Donahue, M. J. (2000, July) Valuegenesis2: Building a rich, growing faith in K-8 homes. Keynote address at the K-12 Teacher’s Convention, North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Dallas, TX.

* Gillespie, W. B., & Donahue, M. J. (2000, July)
Potentials: Creating spiritual environments in
your schools. Workshop presented at the K-12 Teacher’s Convention, North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Dallas, TX.

* Gillespie, W. B., & Donahue, M. J. (2000, July) Valuegenesis2: For better or worse, ten years
after. Workshop presented at the K-12 Teacher’s Convention, North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Dallas, TX.

* Donahue, M. J. (1992, April). Statistical treatment of the Valuegenesis data. Presented in the Valuegenesis Graduate Colloquium, Andrews University.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Man! That's like a cold shot of water to the face!
Really you mean that that means the whole study is done by catholics? That Gillespie and La Sierra university and the Hancock center at La Sierra are pawns of the Catholic.

You had better get this information to the Adventist Review so they will stop using or mentioning the studies. Oh and of course in the world of psychological studies everything is based upon the guy who came up with a term or study technique (at least in DJ's world)

Oh and you better run over to Europe and tell them to stop their Catholic run study...There is still time DJ...do it for your church show them the error of their ways as they are tools of the Roman Catholic ecumenical movement.


Quick our college are being taken over by Catholics.
 
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mva1985

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Annie,

LOL... thanks for your post - your last line really made me laugh.

The thread was in response to some posts in another thread, but they are buried so I thought I would start another thread.

I appreciate your sense of humor!
 
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mva1985

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RC,

Thanks for pointing that out. It is in response to that particular post. Although, I do not feel any obligation to try and defend DL. I believe that he can hold his own.
 
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mva1985

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Dean,

I in no way mean any disrespect to you when I say this, but I am just making an observation based on what I see in this forum.

I certainly believe that I would get along with each and everyone here if we happened to be in the same physical location.

By the way welcome. I certainly hope we do not leave a bad tasted in your mouth. We are a passionate people!
 
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mva1985

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Great post DL.....
 
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mva1985

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mva

I must step and correct you here. the offical SDA postion of the historics/trad is that our works do save us. The fact that you don't believe that is saying your are not a traditional but a conservative.
Ice,

I would be interested if you could point me to the official position that says that.
 
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NightEternal

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