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Dorothy Mae

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These are all excuses. Any man who walks with Jesus would never have condemned a man for disagreeing with him. There is no excuse. Luther might have disagreed but NO ONE was burned at the stake because they disagreed with Luther. And the list of men and women killed under Calvin's tyranny is long. There are more.

The man was a tyrant and he knew it. Once he was walking through Geneva and a dog barked at him. He said "even the dogs hate me." The Genevites hated him for his tyranny. He chose his successor not letting the citizens do that. Maybe you deny all of this but the crowning blow is when he died, the citizens of Geneva did the unthinkable for that day, they threw the body into an unmarked and unhonored grave. Luther's grave is known. The man Calvin was hated by the citizens of Geneva and was tyrannical. They hated him so much they refused to honor his body at death in the most dishonorable way known.

I repeat, if a man walks with Jesus, he would never have let men and women burn at the stake, be exiled or otherwise tortured for disagreeing with him. No one who walks with Jesus would have done this no matter what others in their age were doing. He will not stand before God and give as a defence that this was what everyone else was doing. This attitude of intolerance indicates a deeply manipulating and evil sinner who was trained as a lawyer bent on power. And the fruit of Calvinism is equally intolerant. Nothing at all like Jesus who let men walk away but never harmed them physically for disagreeing with him. Sorry but that is the standard, not what others were doing but what JEsus did.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Just think on it, Pray on it, and ask God for wisdom to understand this.

God Bless!

In Christ Our Justification, Sanctification, and Redemption 1 Cor. 1:30
You need to realize that those who reject Calvinism do not so do because we do not understand the doctrines. It is because we have thought and prayed about them thoroughly and see the problems with it that you likely do not see. It is very likely you do not see the problems because you do not address them.

I also have to add that this "you do not understand it if you do not believe it" is exactly what the evolutionists say about evolution.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I have yet to see you provide any exegesis of Holy Scriptures.
Calvinism is not in Holy Scripture. Therefore exegesis of it will not be discussing the theology. Red, we ought to finish. You are wearing Calvinist glasses and I know from experience and their history that intolerance is the hallmark of the position. I will you well.
 
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redleghunter

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I just showed you a small sampling of how the very early fathers viewed election and predestination. You said "not one." I showed several did.

They had to as any church father commenting on Scriptures will come across the Biblical doctrine of election and predestination. Many have pointed out these passages and you respond with the same refuted assertions.
 
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You have no facts, only accusations. Produce this long list, as I only am aware of one man, the heretic Servetus.

John Calvin was not even a citizen of Geneva (at the time of Servetus execution), he had little to do with it, except for telling the man to stay away and trying to convert the man to Christianity.

Nevermind that Servetus had escaped imprisionment, nevermind that he was wanted for civil crimes. Nevermind he was a criminal on the run knowing he had nowhere to seek refuge. Oh but Calvin committed the sin of being a "snitch", he ratted out Servetus, but not exactly, Servetus was foolish enough to pursue Calvin like a dog after a bone, he would not leave Calvin alone nor the good citizens of Geneva.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,

If Servetus had rendered unto Ceaser, he never would have escaped prison in Vienne. Had he subjected to the authorities in Geneva, he would not have been executed.

For those who continue in the inquisition against Calvin and Calvinists, I remind you:

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

So many posts in this thread reveal just this.
 
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ladodgers6

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Thanks for sharing. I beg to differ. Calvinism is often caricatured by you guys who get 3rd party information or just shoot from the cuff. Election is a Biblical teaching if you believe or not. Without it no one to save! Who will bring any charge against God's elect? Who is he that condemns? God is the Just & the Justifier!

In 1 Cor. 1:30, it reads, It is because of HIM, that you are IN Christ Jesus. Who is HIM? Is it the sinner? Is it the believer?
 
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GodsGrace101

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I've read the above other times LA. I don't need to think about it. I have a big problem with calvinism. I don't even like that it's named after a person, like CHRISTianity.

I don't believe regeneration comes before faith.
Here's what I believe:
God reveals Himself to man, one way or another. I always post Romans 1:19-20 for this. Not just to the Jews but forever and to all the world that is inhabited. Some of us choose God and some do not. I'm always asked WHY some don't choose God, as if to say that it's because HE didn't regenerate them. But then what do you do with John 3:16?
What do you do with John 11:32? What about Acts...what shall we do to be saved? BELIEVE in the Lord, and you shall be saved. And Romans 10:9-11
We confess with our mouth, we believe with our heart.
And 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Paul says he preached the gospel, it was received, they believed it, they were saved.

There's just too much scripture to get over.

I agree with you about Saul. I've said this. There are persons in the bible which God specifically uses for His purpose. I also believe that God is sovereign and He could do whatever He wishes to do. Moses was one of these, Mary was one of these. They were picked and prepared for their purpose even though they found out about it when God revealed it to them and not before.

The Apostles spent over three years with Jesus. Could it be that they didn't know what He taught? He taught that we had to be born again from above .. He said it as if we had the choice..not as if we had to wait to be called by God. I mean, God calls everyone in the way I explained. Calvinists believe He only calls those He chose before time. I hate to use the word "elect" because the elect are His people, the jews, those through whom He revealed Himself.

My last comment is on Particular Atonement. We do not resist God's grace if HE makes us desire Him and to be saved and HE changes our heart in order to make us want to go to Him. Don't you see that this is not free will?

Free will is also a big problem I have with your theology. How could a sovereign God such as He is, ever be happy with creating little robotic persons that only love Him because He, in effect, if making them love Him? This is also effectual. They THINK they love Him, but it's really HIM "making" them love Him. Would YOU ever be happy with a woman that loves you because YOU changed her heart? Maybe yes, but we're mere mortals, I doubt God is like that.

Don't you see that effectual grace, particular atonement, all means that we have no free will? Can you accept that we have no free will? This idea scares me.
 
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ladodgers6

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Thanks for sharing. Again I beg to differ. We prefer Doctrines of Grace. Calvin was animate about not calling it Calvinism. His opponents nick named it Calvinism, just a history lesson.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes R, I know you put work into finding those quotes and I really appreciate it.

I explained the problem to you. It's like we're reading the same stuff and not understanding it the same.

Could it be because we come at it from two different vantage points? You already believe in what Calvin taught and so you see words like Elect, Chosen before time, etc.
I don't believe in predestination and I believe in free will so I understand the Elect to be the Jews (and most theologians too BTW) and chosen before time to mean the METHOD by which we are saved.

You call God a loving God and yet you accept, because of His sovereignty, that He can send persons to damnation and you have no problem with this. This is the most unacceptable theory of calvinism. If we have a God like that, we're like ants under His feet (which we are) that He is ready to crush.

We also never discussed free will. How could we not have free will when it's spoken of all over the bible? If we can choose something, we have free will....If the writers of the N.T. didn't believe this, they never would have mentioned it.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I wish the biblical writers had been more careful with their words. I think they spoke as people of that time understood, but we THINK in a different way and this creates a problem.

1 Corinthians 1:30
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

This doesn't mean God put us in Christ. It means that all we have that comes to us by obeying and all we have by living a good life, comes to us by God and He gives us these things by our believing in Jesus. IOW, from the beginning of time God planned to help us to have good things and live a good life through the redeemer, Jesus, if we follow Him.
 
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συνείδησις

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John Calvin was not even a citizen of Geneva (at the time of Servetus execution), he had little to do with it, except for telling the man to stay away and trying to convert the man to Christianity.

No matter how much Calvin's toadies try to exonerate him, Calvin's own words condemn him - saying he would not let Servetus leave Geneva alive, if his influence meant anything. That alone shows the man's heart.
 
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redleghunter

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No one has defended election and predestination from Calvin's institutes on this thread. They don't have to as has been pointed out multiple times it is a Biblical doctrine.

You and a few others have made this thread about Calvinists and Calvinism. Please keep on subject and address the Scriptural evidence.

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly placesin Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Address the above from the apostle Paul.

Romans 8: NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Address the above from the apostle Paul.

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of the Bible:
Elect, Elected, Election

[ A-1,Adjective,G1588, eklektos ]
lit. signifies picked out, chosen" (ek, "from," lego, "to gather, pick out"), and is used of
(a) Christ, the "chosen" of God, as the Messiah, Luke 23:35 (for the verb in Luke 9:35 See Note below), and metaphorically as a "living Stone," "a chief corner Stone," 1 Peter 2:4, 1 Peter 2:6; some mss. have it in John 1:34, instead of huios, "Son;"
(b) angels, 1 Timothy 5:21, as "chosen" to be of especially high rank in administrative association with God, or as His messengers to human beings, doubtless in contrast to fallen angels (See 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6);
(c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20, Mark 13:22, Mark 13:27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Matthew 20:16; Matthew 22:14; Revelation 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Romans 16:13; 2 John 1:1, 2 John 1:13.
Believers were "chosen" "before the foundation of the world" (cp. "before times eternal," 2 Timothy 1:9), in Christ, Ephesians 1:4, to adoption, Ephesians 1:5; good works, Ephesians 2:10; conformity to Christ, Romans 8:29; salvation from the delusions of the Antichrist and the doom of the deluded, 2 Thessalonians 2:13; eternal glory, Romans 9:23.
The source of their "election" is God's grace, not human will, Ephesians 1:4-Ephesians 1:5; Romans 9:11; Romans 11:5. They are given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God, John 17:6; Romans 8:29. While Christ's death was sufficient for all men, and is effective in the case of the "elect," yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to choose. For the rendering "being chosen as firstfruits," an alternative reading in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, See FIRSTFRUITS. See CHOICE, B.

More:
Elect, Elected, Election - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
 
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ladodgers6

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You are coming from a neutral position...JK!
 
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Clint Edwards

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Hmmmmmm, if God knew a trillion years before I was born that I would choose to be lost, then I could choose nothing but what God foreknew. I was born to be lost, scripted to be lost, I would have absolutely no choice in the matter.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Hmmmmmm, if God knew a trillion years before I was born that I would choose to be lost, then I could choose nothing but what God foreknew. I was born to be lost, scripted to be lost, I would have absolutely no choice in the matter.
Knowing something doesn't cause it to happen.
 
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Clint Edwards

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Knowing something doesn't cause it to happen.
Knowing something absolutely means nothing but what is known can happen. The cause is irrelevant. If my act is co opted by foreknowledge I have no freedom to act otherwise.
 
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ladodgers6

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It is plain as day. Why do you keep exalting people above God? Before Christ came and saved us from this plight before a Holy God. We were condemned Law breakers, waiting to walk the green mile! God saves us WHILE we are still sinners! Notice who we are before God saves us! There is noting in us that will merit or gain any favor with God to chose us! Grace is a 'FREE GIFT', and God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. Its His choice and will, not ours! If you do not understand this, then you do not understand Sin or Grace.

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

In Christ Our Justification, Sanctification, and Redemption 1 Cor. 1:30

It is because of Him, that you are IN CHRIST!!
 
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We must be deluded and deceived then, and for such an unbiblical theology we somehow can produce lists after lists of Scriptures that prove this unbiblical theology.

Scripture Proof Texts - Total Depravity - Total Inability
Scripture Proof Texts - Election - Unconditional
Scripture Proof Texts Regeneration - Ordo Salutis
Saving Faith Is A Gift From God


T.U.L.I.P. Scriptures
Doctrines of Grace Scriptures

Of course these are just a few lists of Scripture proofs that I could quickly refer to.

So far as I have read, YOU have yet to even tell us which glasses YOU are wearing, non-denom could be just about anything under the sun, and everyone thinks they are the Biblicist, so that wouldn't be meaningful, except to demean and suggest others are not. So spill the beans already, which denom or group do you identify with most closely? Or would you rather stay on the offence with tropes and baseless rhetoric? I'd rather be playing nice, by the way, but people like you obviously could care less, so it is what it is.
 
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ladodgers6

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Hmmmmmm, if God knew a trillion years before I was born that I would choose to be lost, then I could choose nothing but what God foreknew. I was born to be lost, scripted to be lost, I would have absolutely no choice in the matter.

Did Saul chose God on the road to Damascus. Did Saul resist God? Did Saul get angry at God for doing this to him? Or did Paul believe, trust, and follow Christ?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Knowing something absolutely means nothing but what is known can happen. The cause is irrelevant. If my act is co opted by foreknowledge I have no freedom to act otherwise.
Huh?
God sees time from the top of a mountain.
He can see the past, the present and the future.
He can do this because He's not part of time because He created time. If I create a painting, I'm not part of that painting because I'm outside of it.

God created time, so He's not a part of it.
If He KNOWS you're going to refuse Him a trillion years from now, it doesn't mean HE is the reason you're going to refuse Him. It just means that He KNEW it.
 
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