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That doesn't work as one of those might decide to leave. Election requires that no one can decide to leave.
Saying this doesn’t make it true. Calvinism is based on the foundation that, above all else, God’s defining attribute is His sovereignty over everything that happens.
I get that. But in strict election, if you want to leave you can't. Even if the door is wide open. and of course, you won't ever want to leave anyway because it was never your choice to begin with. .I don't think you understood the scenario. I'm saying that if you don't want to leave, then it makes no difference whether the door is locked or not.
Well, it is difficult to communicate truth to someone who insists what they think is reasonable AND assaults the character of the one trying to explain it. This means there is a wall around you thinking and you are praising your own thinking and preparing a defense of it by going on the offense. This is difficult for anyone to break through.I suppose then you may well decide to consider me a casually interested person and ignore my reasonable objections to your subjective assumptions. I would submit that neither Moses nor Abraham understood God but they simply obeyed Him without understanding Him at all.
Ah, the difference is in Calvinism, God is predetermining the action and the man is not. That man does not have free will because a will outside of his is making him take that action. If God is the cause of all human action, whether the human wanted it or not, then God is to blame.That "real life" version of "free will" requires that you take the action that you wanted to take. Because you wanted to take it, you can be blamed.
That kind of free will is fully compatible with predestination.
This is making the person who predestined you rather evil because there is no free will. It is all an illusion which is an evil thing to do to someone. Amusing yourself with toys is not the most fulfilling life to be lifed. I know you thought it would be good because people like toys. But the a fulfilled life is not one of many toys. So the person is quite cruel to deceive the subject trapping them in their own thinking offering no truth to them. He/She does not even love them enough to tell them that they can leave. Very cruel.Imagine that you are trapped in a locked room. But you don't know it's locked (you never try the door). You stay in the room because it's full of fun toys: you want to stay there, and you do so of your own free will, even though the person who locked the door predestined you to stay there.
Well, it is difficult to communicate truth to someone who insists what they think is reasonable AND assaults the character of the one trying to explain it. This means there is a wall around you thinking and you are praising your own thinking and preparing a defense of it by going on the offense. This is difficult for anyone to break through.
Now you are wrong about Moses and Abraham. Are you reasonable enough to look at the evidence or have you already made up your mind and evidence will only irritate you? For anyone who is open to consider the matter, both Moses and Abraham negotiated with God as a man does with someone he knows. They reasoned with him based on knowing His character. This only happens when a man knows God. Do you know the Bible well enough to know where?
In Psalms we are told not to be merely obedient like the horse who needs a bit to be steered. Paul, by the way, also knew God. He said that was his goal, to know him. And he did. I know God as well. You can ask me questions if you like. But if you have already decided that all that you think is reasonable and all that I think is merely subjective, you have already closed your mind. I will not be able to penetrate the fortress you have set up, if that is the case.
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." The humble man does not think what goes on in his head on a subject has to be reasonable and everyone else ignorant or merely having subjective assumptions. Your view of your own thinking is rather subjective, IMHO.
If you say that you are reasonable AND I am ignoring you (on purpose) that is attacking my character while elevating your view of your own opinion. You have edited out the bit where you talked about me. What is more, you said my position is subjective assumption. I guess you think your view is not subjective and not an assumption. This is a defense indicating one is closed to anything else but one's own subjective assumption.Are you contending that if I say I am being reasonable I am somehow attacking someone else's character?
Reformed theology requires God forcing people to do what they do not want to do or worse, manipulates them from the inside making them want what Calvinism says God decided for them. It is tyranny of the mind and heart.Reformed theology does not allow for God forcing anyone to do anything they are not willing to do.
Predestination and the somewhat related doctrine of election - do not in any way eliminate the free choices made by men (be they elect of reprobate).
If you say that you are reasonable AND I am ignoring you (on purpose) that is attacking my character while elevating your view of your own opinion. You have edited out the bit where you talked about me. What is more, you said my position is subjective assumption. I guess you think your view is not subjective and not an assumption. This is a defense indicating one is closed to anything else but one's own subjective assumption.
Paul did not say that we are justified purely by grace apart from faith and works.
By grace are you saved, through faith, and that (faith) is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8,9 KJV
"...the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God..." Galatians 2:20 KJV
The phrase "the faith of" Christ, the Son of God, Him, etc. occurs numerous times throughout Scripture. It is not our faith, but His, His gift to us.
I don't know what you mean.lol i think you just lost your right to complain bitterly about untruths, if you say 'no thanks' to the truth
Very sweet of you, but no thanks.here, you can at least clear up the stuff about hell, deal with your other complaints as you see fit
If God is all-loving, andHowever, what is Love? what is just? I also believe God is Love and God is Just. Given that,how is God supposed to act? If he forgives the malevolent he is loving but unjust. If he punishes the malevolent he is just but unloving. Have we decided that God must conform to our moral imperatives?
God hasn't revealed Himself to you?God is who He is. His nature is what His nature is. I do not have a vote.
I recommend when you read the word "predestined" in the Bible look carefully at the text and see what one is predestined for. You will never find predestined for Heaven or Hell. Never. In Ephesians you will find that it says we who believed are predestined to become sons or offspring of God. That is what we are predestined for. Since we play the major roll in how that is fulfilled for obvious reasons, predestined to be like Jesus is the plan of God. It does not mean we cannot fail. So predestined means God wants us all to be like Jesus and that is the plan. Salvation is not mentioned.
And yes, God wants all of humanity to be saved but he is not going to let all those who loved wrong and selfishness into Heaven because he cannot stand them suffering. Unless we repent, we will not be let in. And it is his house and He gets to say who comes in. So I agree with you are very right wne you say that you do not see the predestination doctrine in the Bible. If a man only had the Bible and no teacher, he would not have come up with that doctrine from reading the Bible alone. Men made that one up for personal reasons.
Those who don't care about heaven or hell are atheists.And there are many many more made in His image that have no love for Him.So I ask you to be intellectually honest here and tell me what you intended to convey when you said "made in His image." What does that mean to you exactly?
-Paul Washer
What makes you think I haven't?I made an error and actually addressed Marvin about posts that YOU made. Sorry, Marvin.
I suggest that you should read what the Reformers actually wrote before criticizing them.
Mr dear sir,So what?
I was talking to you when I chimed in and that's all that matters.
You have been from the beginning conflating what you think Calvinist doctrine "amounts to" with what Calvinist doctrine actually is. That's not unusual. It's a common practice here in the forum.
Therefore I supplied an in depth statement of their actual doctrine for you to look at so you would not inadvertently say incorrect things about their beliefs.
Now if you continue to misrepresent them on purpose - it amounts to lying about your brothers and sisters.
If you refuse to study actual Reformed doctrine in relationship with the scriptures they use to support it then you should at least - chatter less and listen more. It will serve you well considering your intellectually lazy condition.
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