Presbyterian 4-pointer

Is it possible to be a Presbyterian moderate (4 point) Calvinist? I think that might most accurately describe me although I am Lutheran as of right now. Thanks for the help in advance.

God Bless

TheologiaCrucis said:

Is it possible to be a Presbyterian moderate (4 point) Calvinist? I think that might most accurately describe me although I am Lutheran as of right now. Thanks for the help in advance.

God Bless

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Sure it is. I don't think you can hold an ordained office with that view, but you don't have to be a full blown Calvinist or a Calvinist at all to be church member in the PCA (my own denomination). It is Christ Church and all who claim Christ are invited in, but to hold office you must subscribe to the Westminster Confession (though some minor exceptions are allowed here and there).

Coram Deo,
Kenith

That is realy confusing to me.
Contradictory labels.
It's like "I'm MOSTLY pregnant".lol

All 5 points are interdependant.

That's why I'm "anti-denominational" - "without the camp".
Men's organizations inherently shelter & promote men's traditions, more or less.

I'm not a paranoid conspiracy nut, but the counter-reformation didn't end with the Inquisition.

When I examined the five points, I came to several conclusions. I didn't want to believe that Christ didn't die for those who are never saved, but that actually turned out to be a belief that denied the power of the cross. I'm only assuming that Limited Atonement is the missing point here, by the way. Let me share links to the writing I have done on each of the points, along with a few other aspects that provide further information. I'll bold the 5 points for clarification. Quick note, if you want to leave any comments on my writings, it may not show up immediately, as I have a setting to only allow comments to show up immediately on things with recent activity. In essence, I'll have to allow the comment to show up:

1. Total Depravity through Adam
2. Condemnation
3. Unconditional Election
4. Limited Atonement
5. Irresistible Grace
6. Salvation
7. Perseverance of the Saints

Ok, maybe I should repent of my attitude.
Mabe it's legitimate, at least in a sense, to be a "3.75 point Calvinist".
After all, if we're going to accept the poor terminology of the label "Calvinist", we might as well open the door to everything else. I imagine a "Half-Hyper 2.5 point Calvinist" could exist since it "takes all kinds". lol
But it would probably only happen in California!

I'm not completely comfortable with the label "Calvinist" because he & I would've parted ways on church discipline issues for one thing.
Just call me a "TULIPist" & becareful how you pronounce that last syllabl.

Rick Otto said:

I'm not completely comfortable with the label "Calvinist" because he & I would've parted ways on church discipline issues for one thing.
Just call me a "TULIPist" & becareful how you pronounce that last syllabl.

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While I'm strongly Reformed, I don't love the term "Calvinist" either (although my pastor tells me all the time I am one ). Two reasons - first and foremost because I'm a Christian. That's all the "label" I need. Second, and much less important, because when many hear the term they automatically assume "hyper-Calvinist." Just too much of a headache to deal with sometimes.

The only time I really use the term Calvinist is on here, just so other posters can know at a glance my basic beliefs--it helps when you are reading someone's post where they are "coming from" so to speak.

My pastor, when doing the series on Grace, never once used the term Calvinism, he spoke only of the Doctrines of Grace. He also didn't use TULIP--but he described them during the series.

It's a shame really, that so many misunderstand what Calvinism is--and it's a double shame that we even have to use the term!!!! It would certainly be nice if when one claimed to be christian, one didn't have to immediately clarify which "kind".

I am glad of the term in one sense though--it piqued my interest when I saw it on here at CF while I was roaming around the congregation boards---and finding out what it was changed my life. I actually didn't have a problem accepting any one of the 5 points(once I understood them), they all just made sense. I guess I'm one of the few though.....

Imblessed said:

My pastor, when doing the series on Grace, never once used the term Calvinism, he spoke only of the Doctrines of Grace. He also didn't use TULIP--but he described them during the series.

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David rarely uses the term from the pulpit - although he might make a reference to "the c word". Will occassionally use one of the TULIP points by name. What he does regularly refer to - the 5 SOLAS. In fact, wall hangings of the SOLAS are the only 'decoration' in our sanctuary.

All of the points of the TULIP work together in perfect harmony. If you believe that man is so totally depraved that he is incapable of doing any good or choosing God, then that leads to Unconditional election since man can't choose God, God must choose man or how would anyone be saved? If you believe that God elected some to eternal life before the world began, then that leads to Limited Atonement because if Jesus died for everyone, but only the elect would be saved, then doesn't that leave a lot of Christ's blood just wasted? Why would Jesus die for a bunch of people that He knew wouldn't be saved. Now, if man can't choose God, but God chose certain men and Jesus died for those men, then that still leaves the question of how man comes to God. That leads into Irresistable Grace. God has to draw the men that he chose and that Christ died for to Himself since they, in their sin, won't choose Him. That then leads to the final point-Perseverence of the Saints. If God chose men to save, had Christ die for them, drew them to Himself since they wouldn't come themselves, then God has to help them to persevere in their faith, since they wouldn't be able to do it themselves. If God saves a man, then that man will persevere till the end.

This is why I find it so hard to believe that people don't believe all five of the Doctrines of Grace. For me, it's all or nothing. If one falls, then the entire TULIP falls. If one is untrue, then all must be untrue, since they are all linked inseparably together.

I know that many people dislke useing the term calvinist an di can understand why. I am a christian. That is what waves me. But it useful to have an easy word to describe what i believe. That is why i am proud to wear the name clavinist. I can also understand why some would want to be called a tulipist, but i would encourage anyone who shys away from Calvin himself to read his works. Mosst of his writeings are not on election. His writeings tell us how we should live a christian life and are incredible applicable today.

(If i may make one other statment, Calvin was not a power hungary man. He never wanted to head the church of Geneva. He just wanted to write. He was literally beg by men on their knees for him to stay their. He agreed only because he felt God had used thessee men to call him there. I am not saying that the man is perfect he definitly made mistakes but give him a fair chance before you talk about him)

Rick Otto said:

All 5 points are interdependant.

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I disagree my "anti" brother.

Election depends only upon the Father's Omniscience & Omnipotence. Total Depravity or unlimited "free" will -- grant what you want. Election stands or falls only on the nature of God.
Limited Atonement depends only upon the nature of Christ's satisfaction.
Preservation of the Saints only depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit.

Logical proofs can be provided.

However, I do believe that one can be an honest 4-Pointer. It matter only how one orders the logical decrees of God in an Infralapsarian order. Here is how:

4-Point Calvinist
Total Depravity ( God resolves to create man and observes his fall)
Unlimited Atonement (The Son resolves to make an atonement)
Limited Atainment (The Father elects some to receive this atonement)
Irresistible Grace &
Preservation of the Saints (The work of the Holy Spirit to secure the salvation of the elect)

I reject this order for the fact that, in the economy of the Trinity (I'm not an Economic Trinitarian but I do believe that there is a kind of economy in the Trinity) the Father is always preeminent, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit. This order confuses the order.

But, it still does grant a kind of TULIP to a 4-pointer.

I believe a better order would be:

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election (The Father resolves to save out of fallen MAN (Adam) -- from one lump to make vessels of mercy & of wrath)
Limited Atonement (The Son resolves to be the surrety and Satisfaction for the vessels of mercy)
Unconditional Election &
Preservation of the saints (The Holy Spirit secures the salvation of the Elect)

Calvinism is a nickname for the Doctrines of Grace- you can remember these by the acronym TULIP or also other some other acronyms people use for them. People who would identify themselves as Calvinists do not follow John Calvin the person but know that his writings on Grace, which are Biblical teachings that are found throughout the Bible. I identify myself as a Christian first, then to explain further saying I believe in the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism). Some people automatically assume you are a hyper-Calvinist or believe in double predestination, or make wrong assumptions about you when you identify yourself as someone who believes the Doctrines of Grace.

CCWoody said:

Logical proofs can be provided.

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Hi Woody!

I hope you don't mind, but could you elaborate on these logical proofs? Just for the sake of understanding; I'm not really sure about what you are saying.

Thank you!

God Bless,
Erin

Choosing to omit one letter of the 'TULIP' is similar to omitting one part of scripture! How can one take out one part and think the remainder is then valid! If you omit the 'L' you are declaring universalism, which then negates the 'U' for unconditional election and even the 'P' for perseverance. What it does is veto God's holy sovereign power to run and rule His world as He chooses! Wont work, its all or nothing, with the TULIP and with the Word! The answers are in the Word, not in ourselves!

Basically a 4 point "Calvinist" isnt a Calvinist at all. The reason for this is that the basic definition of the term a Calvinist has been defined as one who belive's in all five points. Therefor you cant redefine a classic theological term to suit your own belief's.