Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Rick Otto said:

So if you're saved, you no longer are vulnerable to sin, and won't need forgiveness for anything ever again?

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No.

If you are saved, the devil will tempt you to grievously sin and thereby become unsaved. If you yield to the devil's temptations and commit a grievous sin, you are no longer saved.

If a person sins after he is saved, he can repent, confess, and ask for forgiveness and Jesus will then forgive him and save him again.

Rick Otto said:

As many as we're needed for self defense.

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That works both ways.

GillDouglas said:

All men are wicked, but not all shall repent. Why doesn't God get what He wants?

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I disagree. Not all people are wicked. All people do struggle with temptations to do evil because they all inherited from Adam this tendency or strong desire to sin. This does not mean that every person is personally wicked.


Noah was personally a righteous man.

Jan001 said:

Revelation 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. rsv
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A person can become saved, fall away, and then repent and become saved again. He can do this cycle until he dies. However, it is his state at the time of his death, saved or unsaved, which determines his final destination: eternal life or second death in hell.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv​

I believe Jesus when He states that some people believe for a while and then they fall away. When a person falls away, he is no longer saved.

I think the Book of Life is a living book and that peoples' names can be written in and blotted out. Only God knows whose names will be in the Book of Life at the end of time and it is only these people who will be approved to inherit eternal life.

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How does a person loose the seal of the Holy Spirit to become not saved? That would have to happen since the seal of the Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance as heirs of Christ until the Day of Redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:5
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jan001 said:

I disagree. Not all people are wicked. All people do struggle with temptations to do evil because they all inherited from Adam this tendency or strong desire to sin. This does not mean that every person is personally wicked.

Genesis 6:9
This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. rsv​

Noah was personally a righteous man.

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Righteous in his generations. However, the Bible tells us that there is none totally righteous. That belief conflicts with the Bible.
Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

Jan001 said:

There was one universal catholic faith, but many individual local churches all teaching this same exact faith. This one church came to be called the Catholic Church and it still is.

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That is not a true claim at all. Just because the word "catholic" means "universal church" doesn't mean the catholic church is the universal church nor does it in any way mean it's a Christian church because it supports more pagan practices that aren't supported by the bible than it supports biblical precepts and statutes

Jan001 said:

All these writings written to the individual local churches were preserved by the Catholic Church.

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History doesn't support that notion.

Jan001 said:

I am finished with that subject.

Perhaps you can explain to me why you still believe that Jesus and His Father are the same Person?

Matthew 20:23
He [Jesus] said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” rsv

Ephesians 1:17-21
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; rsv​

Revelation 3:21
He who conquers, I [Jesus] will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. rsv​

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Funny how you said you were done with this subject and went on to misquote scripture?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Jan001 said:

History revisionism which blames Catholicism for all the world's problems is not relevant for me.

Like I said before, it is not prudent to judge 1st century people by 21st century morals. Today, my own country sanctions the murder of unborn children.

You do know that Saul (later Paul), a Jew, persecuted Christians? In his day, persecution of Christians is what faithful Jews did and they did this because they believed it was God's will for them to do in order to deter other Jews from converting to the heresy of Christianity.

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Nobody here said anything that the catholic church is not responsible for. What you mentioned about Paul was wrong then as it is now which is why Jesus pointed it out so your point about morals is moot.

keltoi said:

God created all things, that includes the spiritual realm.

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Since God has always existed does that also have to mean; God has existed somewhere, so that somewhere has always existed?

Jan001 said:

I disagree. Not all people are wicked. All people do struggle with temptations to do evil because they all inherited from Adam this tendency or strong desire to sin. This does not mean that every person is personally wicked.

Genesis 6:9
This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. rsv​

Noah was personally a righteous man.

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I appreciate your input and can understand what you're saying by use of this passage. However I have a hard time believing anyone, other than Christ, was perfect and sinless their entire life.

This would mean the possibility that any person could enter Heaven without the need of Christ's redemptive works, having lived perfect.

Jan001 said:

If a Christian commits murder, adultery, or fornication and he does not repent before he dies, will he still be approved to inherit eternal life?

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Were they truly a Christian?

bling said:

Since God has always existed does that also have to mean; God has existed somewhere, so that somewhere has always existed?

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God exists within himself, does God not know himself?

ToBeLoved said:

How does a person loose the seal of the Holy Spirit to become not saved? That would have to happen since the seal of the Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance as heirs of Christ until the Day of Redemption.

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The "seal" of the Holy Spirit is His "actual presence" living within us. If the Holy Spirit is currently living within us, we are being sealed by Him and so therefore we can have hope of inheriting eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

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What is the Holy Spirit's seal/presence pledging to us?

The Holy Spirit's presence within us gives us hope that we will inherit eternal life after we die.

The actual, literal presence of the Holy Spirit within us is the actual, literal seal/guarantee/pledge that we are presently being saved.

Ephesians 1:13-14

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13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

1 Peter 1:5
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

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It is the Holy Spirit's actual presence within us that saves us and continues to save us. If the Holy Spirit is within us, we are God's possession.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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What happens to a Christian who grieves the Holy Spirit by his disobedience to God's commandments?

So, the disobedient Christian falsely believes that he will be approved to inherit eternal life.

We continue to stand with Christ and continue to be saved by Him through our obedience to God's commandments. If we do not continue to obey His commandments, we are not going to be approved to inherit eternal life. Disobedient Christians believe in vain that they will inherit eternal life.

ToBeLoved said:

Righteous in his generations. However, the Bible tells us that there is none totally righteous. That belief conflicts with the Bible.
Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

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Humans inherit the consequences of Adam's sin. Adam's sin lost the possibility for eternal life with God for himself and all his descendants. That is why Lazarus and Abraham were not in heaven with God after they died although the Rich Man was already in hell after he died.

The Jews and the Gentiles both inherited Adam's sin. Neither were exempt.

The Israelites as a group did have some knowledge of God, but they still chose to sin against Him. Yet, Cornelius, an individual Gentile, chose to be a righteous man and serve God. Acts 10

BornAgainChristian1 said:

That is not a true claim at all. Just because the word "catholic" means "universal church" doesn't mean the catholic church is the universal church nor does it in any way mean it's a Christian church because it supports more pagan practices that aren't supported by the bible than it supports biblical precepts and statutes
History doesn't support that notion.

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You are mistaken about your claims, but this is not the thread to be discussing these.

BornAgainChristian1 said:

Funny how you said you were done with this subject and went on to misquote scripture?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

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God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. Three individual Persons, but one God.

God is made of one Spiritual substance, but He is three separate Persons.

Jesus is NOT His own Father!


You simply do not understand that Jesus cannot possibly be His own Father!

GillDouglas said:

I appreciate your input and can understand what you're saying by use of this passage. However I have a hard time believing anyone, other than Christ, was perfect and sinless their entire life.

This would mean the possibility that any person could enter Heaven without the need of Christ's redemptive works, having lived perfect.

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No human entered into heaven until after Christ's regenerative work was finished on the cross. Adam's sin prevented all humans from entering into heaven to be with God the Father.
I do know that Mary, Jesus' mother, was conceived without original sin and I also know that Mary never personally sinned. Eve chose to sin, but Mary did not ever choose to sin. Mary was already spiritually "one" with God at her conception because the Father chose Mary and blessed her to be the Mother of His Incarnate Son, Jesus. Mary's DNA had to be pure/perfect/not corrupted by Adam's sin in order for Jesus' human DNA to be pure. Therefore Mary is the new Eve and Jesus is the new Adam. Both are without sin just as Adam and Eve were without sin before they fell from grace.



Jesus saved Mary at the instant of her conception by the merits of His own sacrifice in the same manner (outside of time constraints) as He gave His apostles His literal Flesh and His literal Blood to eat and drink before He physically died on the cross. Matthew 26:26-29

God is not subject to the constraints of time and space. Past, Present, and Future are all ever-present to Him, therefore God's works were finished before the foundation of the world. (This is not the thread to discuss this topic in detail.)

And today when a person dies, he is not permitted to go to be with God the Father unless first Jesus approves him worthy.

keltoi said:

Were they truly a Christian?

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If they were baptized, yes.

Jan001 said:

You are mistaken about your claims, but this is not the thread to be discussing these.

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But you most certainly are making that claim that your church is the "universal church" and yes that has been your consistent argument.

Jan001 said:

God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. Three individual Persons, but one God.

God is made of one Spiritual substance, but He is three separate Persons.

Jesus is NOT His own Father!

Luke 1:32
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, rsv

Hebrews 1:5-9
For to what angel did God ever say,
“Thou art my Son,
today I have begotten thee”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
6 And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 Of the angels he says,
“Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But of the Son he says,
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,
the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee
with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades.” rsv
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You simply do not understand that Jesus cannot possibly be His own Father!

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As usual all you that make that claim can never give a explanation that Jesus does indeed make that claim and do nothing but deflect to misquoting scripture which make you seem all the more desperate....

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.