Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

BornAgainChristian1 · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Jesus only started one Church. Which Church forgives sins?

No church has the power to forgive sin including yours.

Confession to a priest has absolutely no effect on sin

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

Rick Otto · May 9, 2016

Jan001 said:
Jesus saves us, but we continue in His salvation by our faith/good works.

To continue in faith/belief in Jesus, we must do what Jesus commanded us to do until we die. If we continue to do as Jesus commands us to do until we die, He will then reward us with eternal life. Jesus commands us to keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3-4, Revelation 14:12

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. nkjv

Revelation 2:23
I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. nkjv

Revelation 3:1-3
“.......
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name [Christian] that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. nkjv

Please note that eternal life for the Christian is conditional. It depends upon a person's works whether he will inherit eternal life OR inherit indignation and wrath.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

Salvation maintenance is a euphemism for probation.
What is to keep one from sinning in heaven... free will?

Rick Otto · May 9, 2016

Jan001 said:
The greatest reward a person can receive is eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:18-20
Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. nkjv

Eternal life is not a reward.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 9, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Eternal life is not a reward.

Agreed because salvation is a gift of God.

ToBeLoved · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Yes, a member of the Church, but not the leader.

Jesus only started one Church and he appointed the leaders.

Jesus didn't start any church. What are you talking about?

Also, please read again. We (each Christian) IS THE CHURCH. Not a member of a church. But, THE CHURCH

ToBeLoved · May 9, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Agreed because salvation is a gift of God.

Best answer of the week!

ToBeLoved · May 9, 2016

Rick Otto said:
What is to keep one from sinning in heaven... free will?

What is that suppose to mean?

Will their be pain in heaven?
Sadness?
Sin?

BornAgainChristian1 · May 9, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Best answer of the week!

Yep something we neither deserve or could ever earn.

keltoi · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Jesus only started one Church. Which Church is 2000 years old? Which Church is lead by the successor of Peter? Which Church forgives sins?

Did Peter need a successor? Where does the Bible say anything about this?

keltoi · May 9, 2016

98cwitr said:
From now on I will only respond to you using Scripture:

This will be interesting.

98cwitr said:
Isaiah 44:24 [ Jerusalem to Be Inhabited ] “This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.

Yep Human plans, that is plans that Humans make not plans that God makes but plans that Humans make. Thanks for providing a verse that shows free will to be real.

98cwitr said:
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.

Yet another verse that shows we have free will. BTW of course the Lord purpose prevails but that is because he already knows what we will do.

98cwitr said:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Of course it is but when someone states that we need to be careful and use scripture in context and tehn that person doesn't use scripture in context, and still isn't, that person looks rather silly.

98cwitr said:
Romans 9:17-22 New International Version (NIV)

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Are you trying to tell me something I do not already know? This really isnlt a response to my response to you.

98cwitr said:
Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Yes who are you to judge someone else?

98cwitr said:
John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

1 Corinthians 15:34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

More verses where Christ is telling people to stop sinning, you know it amazes me that Christ can tell people to stop sinning because he knows it is possible yet you think it isn't. Who is wrong you or Christ?

98cwitr said:
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

Lusts and sexuality are different things. There is a discussion about incest in the Bible and how at one stage it wasn't a taboo but over time it become one. I asked you to define sexuality, I wanted to know what you believe it is. It seems to me you don't have an opinion on what it is so I am left wondering why you asked the off topic question you asked.

98cwitr said:
John 8:41-44 New International Version (NIV)

41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Pretty big call there, be careful now you may get a couple of verses thrown back at you such as Romans 14:4.

keltoi · May 9, 2016

Thursday said:
Obviously I was referring to the NT.

It doesn't matter what you were referring to, you said the Bible which is 66 books in 2 parts, you are still wrong.

Thursday said:
Jesus started the Church. The apostles were the leaders of his Church. Which Church do you think he started?

The Christian Church. Christ never used the word Catholic. As Christians we follow Christ not the Catholic Church.

Thursday said:
Which Church is led today by the successors of Peter and the apostles?

The Christian Church is led by Christians. If you are trying to suggest the Roman Catholic Church with its head office in Rome (Vatican City) is THE Church then you may want to look at the threads that have already discussed this, one of which was closed. This topic is about predestination not the church.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
No church has the power to forgive sin including yours.

The Church Jesus started does:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Thursday · May 10, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Salvation maintenance is a euphemism for probation.
What is to keep one from sinning in heaven... free will?

We are all on probation. Only he who endures will be saved.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
.6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matt 13
20The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and promptly receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The seed sown among the thorns is the one who hears the word, but the worries of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Matt 24
12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

2 Chron 15:2
The LORD is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

etc.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Jesus didn't start any church. What are you talking about?

Also, please read again. We (each Christian) IS THE CHURCH. Not a member of a church. But, THE CHURCH

Yes he did.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15
4Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household,which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

keltoi said:
The Christian Church is led by Christians. If you are trying to suggest the Roman Catholic Church with its head office in Rome (Vatican City) is THE Church then you may want to look at the threads that have already discussed this, one of which was closed. This topic is about predestination not the church.

There is no such thing as the Christian Church in the manner you are implying. Among non Catholics there are thousands of denominations led by men who teach contradictory doctrines.

That is not the Church started by Jesus.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

keltoi said:
Did Peter need a successor? Where does the Bible say anything about this?

The bible tells us that a successor for Judas was chosen. Why do you assume none was chosen for Peter?

Post biblical history is quite clear. We have the lists of popes going all the way back to Peter. In fact, by the the time all the books of the New Testament were written the Church was on the fourth pope. It wasn't until about 300 years later that the Catholic Church selected the books of the New Testament and officially declared the canon.

Here's a list from 180 AD of the popes:

http://thiscatholicjourney.com/2009/09/against-heresies-book-iii-chapter-3-st.html

ToBeLoved · May 10, 2016

Thursday said:
Yes he did.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15
4Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household,which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

There were physical churches. 'es'. Which church is the church? Which NT church?

ToBeLoved · May 10, 2016

Thursday said:
The bible tells us that a successor for Judas was chosen. Why do you assume none was chosen for Peter?

Post biblical history is quite clear. We have the lists of popes going all the way back to Peter. In fact, by the the time all the books of the New Testament were written the Church was on the fourth pope. It wasn't until about 300 years later that the Catholic Church selected the books of the New Testament and officially declared the canon.

Here's a list from 180 AD of the popes:

http://thiscatholicjourney.com/2009/09/against-heresies-book-iii-chapter-3-st.html

Why would we assume that a successor is needed for an Apostle? Did Jesus say each apostle needed a successor? Who are the successor's for the other ones? Or are you singling out Peter for your own purposes?

ToBeLoved · May 10, 2016

Thursday said:
There is no such thing as the Christian Church in the manner you are implying. Among non Catholics there are thousands of denominations led by men who teach contradictory doctrines.

That is not the Church started by Jesus.

Isn't the Catholic church full of pedifiles? That doesn't sound Christ-like. Jesus protected children. Maybe you should look closer at the Catholic church.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
There were physical churches. 'es'. Which church is the church? Which NT church?

Jesus only started one Church, although it had many locations by the time the New Testament was finished.

Here's an example:

Acts 15
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Well-Known Member

The Dude Abides

The Dude Abides

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency