Pre-Wrathers' Any Takers?

JaimeMan · Mar 4, 2005

Are there any Pre-Wrather's here? Just wonderin?

Dad Ernie · Mar 4, 2005

Greetings JaimeMan,

I believe in a post-trib pre-wrath rapture of a very small number of Christians. What do you want me to take?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

good4u · Mar 4, 2005

Oh yes, I am of the positon of a pre-wrath. And your point is?

dankim80 · Mar 4, 2005

I've been a post-trib/pre-wrath believer,too, but lately I've been wondering about my pre-wrath stance.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walketh naked, and they see his shame.

I wonder why Jesus is speaking this during sixth vial being poured out. Seems like he is exclaiming his return will be soon. Next, the kings of the earth are gathered to Armageddon. Then the Lord returns. So this would place the rapture during the 6th or 7th vial. I always thought of the vials as the wrath of God being poured out. Am I wrong? If they are, then I'm not sure I can hold to my pre-wrath stand anymore.

good4u · Mar 5, 2005

dankim80 said:
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walketh naked, and they see his shame.

I wonder why Jesus is speaking this during sixth vial being poured out. Seems like he is exclaiming his return will be soon. Next, the kings of the earth are gathered to Armageddon. Then the Lord returns. So this would place the rapture during the 6th or 7th vial. I always thought of the vials as the wrath of God being poured out. Am I wrong? If they are, then I'm not sure I can hold to my pre-wrath stand anymore.

No, the Lord has already returned during the pouring out of the vials. The church is already been gathered and all that is happening is His judgment upon a wicked world. Don't second guess yourself. Who is putting doubt into your mind?

Dad Ernie · Mar 5, 2005

dankim80 said:
I've been a post-trib/pre-wrath believer,too, but lately I've been wondering about my pre-wrath stance.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walketh naked, and they see his shame.

I wonder why Jesus is speaking this during sixth vial being poured out. Seems like he is exclaiming his return will be soon. Next, the kings of the earth are gathered to Armageddon. Then the Lord returns. So this would place the rapture during the 6th or 7th vial. I always thought of the vials as the wrath of God being poured out. Am I wrong? If they are, then I'm not sure I can hold to my pre-wrath stand anymore.

Greetings Dankim80,

I see the wrath of God when it is poured out upon Babylon. Note that it says:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I believe that Babylon receives its power at the start of the Tribulation, and anyone not taking the MoB must be killed. Early on, we see that without the MoB no one can buy or sell without the Mark, but it will degenerate into a very great hate against Christians who will be "out on the street" preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They will have come out of Babylon and God will miraculously care for them, even as He did with Elijah, for it is these days that the Elijah Spirit will be upon all Christians.

During all the plagues, bowls, vials, whatever, Christians will be like the Jews were in Egypt when Moses was trying to get Pharoah to let them go.

Now if you do a study of the differences between tribulation and wrath, you will find that

TRIBULATION takes place over a relatively long period of time. It can be very severe, but is intended to bring people to repentance or to strengthen those who are weak. It is not always fatal.

GOD'S WRATH happens in a very short time - an hour or less. It is always fatal, and there can be no doubt that it is a "miraculous" event which only God can do. Examples of God's wrath are as follows:

Korah's rebellion
The Red Sea flooding over the Egyptians in the time of the Exodus
Sodom & Gomorrah
The Noahic flood
When Uzza touched the Ark
Annanias and Sapphira
Babylon - in one hour her destruction has come

What I find very interesting is:

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

This is for the three and one half years immediately preceeding the Lord's 2nd Advent. This is the same time we see the plagues and seals and bowls or vials. Do you realize that it is these two witnesses that will be causing all of that by praying and the Lord sending out His angels to perform it?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

dankim80 · Mar 5, 2005

good4u said:
No, the Lord has already returned during the pouring out of the vials. The church is already been gathered and all that is happening is His judgment upon a wicked world. Don't second guess yourself. Who is putting doubt into your mind?

Dear good4u,
Rev 16:15 is putting doubt into my mind. I think if you say that you believe in a pre-wrath rapture, you would be saying that the rapture occurs before the pouring out of the seven vials that have the (Rev 15:1) "seven last plagues" which are filled up with the wrath of God. Also Rev15:7 and Rev16:1 refer to these last seven plagues that are being poured upon the earth as the wrath of God.

I was a pre-wrath rapture believer, but very recently when I was reading Revelation, Rev 16:15 stood out to me. There is a pause within the 6th plague after the Euphrates river is dried up and before the world is gathered to Armageddon. Jesus says, Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

It seems to me that the rapture has not occurred yet or why is Jesus saying this during the 6th plague, which is right before his return. In other words, how can the rapture have occurred before the 1st plague, which is how I believed before?

I try to seek His Truth rather than to hold onto an incorrect interpretation of scripture on my part. I haven't reached a new conclusion on the pre-wrath rapture yet, but I'm at a seeking/brainstorming stage at this point.

Thank you for your concern and encouragement.

dankim80 · Mar 5, 2005

Dad Ernie said:
Greetings Dankim80,

I see the wrath of God when it is poured out upon Babylon. Note that it says:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I believe that Babylon receives its power at the start of the Tribulation, and anyone not taking the MoB must be killed. Early on, we see that without the MoB no one can buy or sell without the Mark, but it will degenerate into a very great hate against Christians who will be "out on the street" preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They will have come out of Babylon and God will miraculously care for them, even as He did with Elijah, for it is these days that the Elijah Spirit will be upon all Christians.

During all the plagues, bowls, vials, whatever, Christians will be like the Jews were in Egypt when Moses was trying to get Pharoah to let them go.

Now if you do a study of the differences between tribulation and wrath, you will find that

TRIBULATION takes place over a relatively long period of time. It can be very severe, but is intended to bring people to repentance or to strengthen those who are weak. It is not always fatal.

GOD'S WRATH happens in a very short time - an hour or less. It is always fatal, and there can be no doubt that it is a "miraculous" event which only God can do. Examples of God's wrath are as follows:

Korah's rebellion
The Red Sea flooding over the Egyptians in the time of the Exodus
Sodom & Gomorrah
The Noahic flood
When Uzza touched the Ark
Annanias and Sapphira
Babylon - in one hour her destruction has come

What I find very interesting is:

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

This is for the three and one half years immediately preceeding the Lord's 2nd Advent. This is the same time we see the plagues and seals and bowls or vials. Do you realize that it is these two witnesses that will be causing all of that by praying and the Lord sending out His angels to perform it?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dear Dad Ernie,

You have given me a lot to think about. I agree with your explanation, except you don't seem to think that all of the last 7 vials/plagues are the wrath of God. See my note to good4u above for scriptual reasoning that all 7 plagues are the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

Babylon is definitely part of God's wrath, receiving its plague during the 7th vial. As you pointed out, Christians do not receive of her plagues. Some of the other plagues are spefically intended only for the unbelievers, also, so i had previously, now I think erroneously, concluded that the Lord must have raptured us prior to these plagues. But I'm seeing now, after what you have written and by looking at the scriptures more carefully, that we are protected from them.

Are you a pre-wrath rapture believer, or do you think that believers are on the earth, but are not touched by the last 7 plagues that are filled up with the wrath of God? From what you've written, I think you believe the latter, but you have stated that you a pre-wrath believer.

Jesus doesn't return until the 7th plague is poured out, so I believe the rapture must occur then which is after at least the 1st six plagues of wrath.

If the 2 witnesses are praying down the wrath of God as described in these last plagues, it is no wonder that the world is rejoicing when the beast is finally allowed to overcome them. Thankfully, their rejoicing is quickly ended.

I love your description of Christians "on the street" preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and God caring for them. I knew the difference between the wrath of God and tribulation, but I had never really thought about the miraculous events surrounding the wrath of God. Thanks for pointing these out to me.

A side note: I don't see the 1st 4 seals occurring within the "3 1/2 years".
I see the 4 horsemen riding forth to usher in the rising of the "son of perdition/little horn". Perhaps we can discuss this some other time.

Thanks for the input.

Dad Ernie · Mar 5, 2005

Greetings Dankim80,

I think we are generally close, but I believe there is only a 3 1/2 year Trib period. All instances or references to 3 1/2 years in Rev all run concurrently and not consequitively. I also believe that the "two witnesses" are two groups and not two men. The two groups are references in Eph 1-3 - Jews and Gentiles. These are the two lights in the world and they are the two olive trees mentioned in Romans 11 - the natural and the wild olive tree.

The first resurrection is at the time of the resurrection of the two witnesses. About 45 days later (I think that is correct), the rapture will occur of those who are alive and remain (the remnant - Rev 11:13) at the 7th Trumpet or "last trump".

When it speaks of the resurrection and catching away in Thess., all it says is that the resurrection occurs first THEN the catching away. It does not say they occur simultaneously.

There are many reasons I believe as I do and if you have questions just ask.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

good4u · Mar 7, 2005

dankim80 said:
Dear good4u,
Rev 16:15 is putting doubt into my mind. I think if you say that you believe in a pre-wrath rapture, you would be saying that the rapture occurs before the pouring out of the seven vials that have the (Rev 15:1) "seven last plagues" which are filled up with the wrath of God. Also Rev15:7 and Rev16:1 refer to these last seven plagues that are being poured upon the earth as the wrath of God.

I was a pre-wrath rapture believer, but very recently when I was reading Revelation, Rev 16:15 stood out to me. There is a pause within the 6th plague after the Euphrates river is dried up and before the world is gathered to Armageddon. Jesus says, Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

It seems to me that the rapture has not occurred yet or why is Jesus saying this during the 6th plague, which is right before his return. In other words, how can the rapture have occurred before the 1st plague, which is how I believed before?

I try to seek His Truth rather than to hold onto an incorrect interpretation of scripture on my part. I haven't reached a new conclusion on the pre-wrath rapture yet, but I'm at a seeking/brainstorming stage at this point.

Thank you for your concern and encouragement.

Yes, it is best to keep an open mind as these events have not yet happened and COULD be subject to change. However, when Jesus talks about coming as a thief he speaks of the "unexpectedness" of his return to an unbelieving world. And those who are prepared by "watching" [i.e., the true church] keep their "garments" [i.e., right relationship to God] as compared to the compromised church who walks "naked" and are put to shame.

Do you see how this does not contridict the pre-wrath position? Don't do this to yourself.

dankim80 · Mar 7, 2005

good4u said:
Yes, it is best to keep an open mind as these events have not yet happened and COULD be subject to change. However, when Jesus talks about coming as a thief he speaks of the "unexpectedness" of his return to an unbelieving world. And those who are prepared by "watching" [i.e., the true church] keep their "garments" [i.e., right relationship to God] as compared to the compromised church who walks "naked" and are put to shame.

Do you see how this does not contridict the pre-wrath position? Don't do this to yourself.

I agree with you that Jesus is addressing the unsaved when he says, "Behold I come as a thief." But it seems to me that he is addressing the true church with "Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

So why address the church if the church is with him at this point? Why is he even bothering with telling us to watch if we are with him?

Jesus speaks this verse right after the river is dried up and just before the gathering at Armageddon where he returns to defeat the AC and his armies. Seems like He's telling the church to "hang in there just a little bit longer".

dankim80 · Mar 8, 2005

Dad Ernie said:
Greetings Dankim80,

I think we are generally close, but I believe there is only a 3 1/2 year Trib period. All instances or references to 3 1/2 years in Rev all run concurrently and not consequitively. I also believe that the "two witnesses" are two groups and not two men. The two groups are references in Eph 1-3 - Jews and Gentiles. These are the two lights in the world and they are the two olive trees mentioned in Romans 11 - the natural and the wild olive tree.

The first resurrection is at the time of the resurrection of the two witnesses. About 45 days later (I think that is correct), the rapture will occur of those who are alive and remain (the remnant - Rev 11:13) at the 7th Trumpet or "last trump".

When it speaks of the resurrection and catching away in Thess., all it says is that the resurrection occurs first THEN the catching away. It does not say they occur simultaneously.

There are many reasons I believe as I do and if you have questions just ask.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Yes, it seems we are quite close in our thinking. I see the "great tribulation" as 3 1/2 years in length, also, and all references to that period of time in Revelation as occurring simultaneously. However, the 1st six Seals do not reference any time spans. I believe the 1st 4 seals, ie, the riding forth of the 4 horsemen are what Jesus describes as "the beginning of sorrows" (Matt 24:4-8). I also feel that these horsemen are preparing the world to accept the AC. They bring forth his world Kingdom and his arising as King. I believe the "3 1/2 years" occurs within the 5th Seal, which is probably longer than 3 1/2 years. I believe that the resting for a little season until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled describes the 42 months given to the beast to make war with the saints.

The resurrection and rapture being separated by 45 days is something that I will study more. I hadn't considered it before. Maybe during the 45 days , the armies are gathering. This would make sense if the ressurection had just occurred. Perhaps the world is so scared of what's happening "in the sky" that they get ready to fight. I'm just thinking out loud about this because I never thought about a gap between the resurrection and the rapture before. I will enjoy studying this further. Thanks!

Dad Ernie · Mar 8, 2005

Greetings Dankim80,

The opening remarks of Revelation includes:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Full Preterists use this to conclude that somehow Revelation, which they believe was written before 70 A.D., was concluded by 70 A.D.

Well, I believe that Jesus is introducing the "church age" and therefore addresses each of the "spirits" of the 7 churches. Undoubtedly there were MANY churches by that time, but Jesus only addresses 7. I see these as the archtype of "spirit" that would be upon all churches from then to the very end of the age.

Then from Chapter 4 onward, we see no relevant remarks regarding the church. The only reference is to the "saints of God". Well, we know that at the end of the age, men will no longer listen to sound doctrine, and there shall be a very great apostacy by the church. The TRUE Christians will be sealed and called out at that time and then the Beast is let loose to wage war against the saints. This is when the False Prophet leads those in the fallen (Laodician church spirit) church into the maws of Babylon. This will have taken the Mark of the Beast and will be able to continue on with business as usual, but the true Christians will be out on the street preaching in sackcloth and ashes.

So from the start of the trib, which begins with the beast waging war against the saints, until the destruction of Babylon is 3 1/2 years + 45 days (or so?).

Note that the two witnesses are the likely cause of all the plagues etc. that is occuring on the earth, until they are killed.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

good4u · Mar 8, 2005

dankim80 said:
I agree with you that Jesus is addressing the unsaved when he says, "Behold I come as a thief." But it seems to me that he is addressing the true church with "Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

So why address the church if the church is with him at this point? Why is he even bothering with telling us to watch if we are with him? ".

Remember, the "church" is made up of all kinds of spiritual levels, okay? These levels include faithful, compromising and apostate which is what the seven letters represent at the begining of Revelation. So it is with the church today, Jesus is warning that unless you have your garments of "salvation" purchased by the blood of Jesus you are spiritually "naked" before Him. That ain't good.

dankim80 said:
Jesus speaks this verse right after the river is dried up and just before the gathering at Armageddon where he returns to defeat the AC and his armies. Seems like He's telling the church to "hang in there just a little bit longer".

No, no the battle at Armageddon is 30 days after the rapture of the Church and the close of the 70th week when the nation of Israel (what is left of it) obtains national salvation. And Armageddon is Satan's last stand when his rule over the earth is finished and the millenial kingdom of Christ begins. You are assuming incorrectly that the church is still on earth when in fact it is not but is sent to heaven till the wrath of God is finished.

BearJim · Mar 13, 2005

I see myself as holding a "modified" pre-wrath view as opposed to the "classic" views given by Rosenthal and Van Kampen. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 15: 51,52. In Revelation 10:7, John is told that at the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled. Pual also related the sounding of the trumpet to a mystery. When the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:15ff), the Lord is noted as the One who was and is- He has come for the Church Then, after the Church is raptured, the seven bowls of wrath are poured out. I believe that this takes place in a very short period of time- perhaps a few days- maybe those mysterious 30 extra days listed in Daniel 12:11.

Dad Ernie · Mar 13, 2005

BearJim said:
I see myself as holding a "modified" pre-wrath view as opposed to the "classic" views given by Rosenthal and Van Kampen. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 15: 51,52. In Revelation 10:7, John is told that at the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled. Pual also related the sounding of the trumpet to a mystery. When the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:15ff), the Lord is noted as the One who was and is- He has come for the Church Then, after the Church is raptured, the seven bowls of wrath are poured out. I believe that this takes place in a very short period of time- perhaps a few days- maybe those mysterious 30 extra days listed in Daniel 12:11.

Greetings fellow pre-wrather,

In the days just before the 7th trumpet blows, it is the time of the 7 thunders. John was told to seal up this vision. It is indeed a time of mystery, but when you consider this, and the prior 6 trumpets, I don't understand how you can conclude they occur during that time of the 7 thunders.???

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

2Timothy2 · Mar 13, 2005

I would say the pre-wrath position most closely represents my understanding at this point. Although, I find the partial-preterist position intriguing, as I have only just heard about it. heh

BearJim · Mar 13, 2005

Dad Ernie:
I guess I'm not following you on the seven thunders. That vision, like the vision concerning the two witnesses, is one of the "seven interludes" found in Revelation. The visions of the mighty angel and the two witnesses could be said to occur as part of the sixth seal (cf Rev. 9:12- the fith seal as the first woe; Rev 11:14 the sixth seal (and what follows?) as the second woe).

Dad Ernie · Mar 13, 2005

BearJim said:
I guess I'm not following you on the seven thunders. That vision, like the vision concerning the two witnesses, is one of the "seven interludes" found in Revelation. The visions of the mighty angel and the two witnesses could be said to occur as part of the sixth seal (cf Rev. 9:12- the fith seal as the first woe; Rev 11:14 the sixth seal (and what follows?) as the second woe).

Greetings Bear Jim,

Thank you. You just brought something to my attention that apparently has escaped me:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I had not considered this "woe" before, which appears to be the THIRD Woe in the series. Before I get back to, if I don't forget, I'll have to give this a lot more consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

vinsight4u · Mar 21, 2005

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