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ddhurley

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#1 The motivation originates from a changed (from a dead to a living) heart...in other words AFTER we become "saved' them we'll have a real desire to become a better person (Christ like)...before we're saved we are dead spiritually, and dead people do not want or even have the ability to seek after God.

Again, God has made the choice for you...did Abraham choose to be the father of nations or was his destiny already decided for him? Did Israel choose to be Gods 'chosen' people or did God before-hand chose Israel to be his people?

Ro 9:21 (Hath not the potter [God] power over the clay [mankind], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?)


#2 Salvation is necessary for the predestined to come to God, and salvation (faith) comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...we bring the good news of the gospel (the Word) to a dead world so that salvation comes to the predestined (elect).

AV Jn 6:37 (All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...).

Jn 6:44 (No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him...).

*so what can you saving them do for them in terms of the afterlife?*, We cannot save anyone, all we do is bring the message of the gospel, its up the H/S to do the rest.
 
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Albion

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Why? That whosoever believes, so therefore The Elected(If you want to call it that) can be anyone.

Well, no. What does the following mean?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That whosoever Believes, that is a Choice.

It doesn't say that. It says that those who do, all of them, have everlasting life. It doesn't speak to the reason they might become believers.
 
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ddhurley

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I agree with you, in that verse it does not say how they came to be a believer, only that all believers will be saved.

But when you couple a statement like John 3:16 with Romans 3:11-12 (there is none that seeketh after God...no not one), I think its fair to ask the question why or how does someone who doesn't seek after God find himself a believer? Again, if no one seeks after God then how to they find something they aren't looking for?

When Lazarus had already been dead four days and Christ stood outside his tomb and gave the command, Lazarus come forth, what choice did Lazarus have in it?, was he even asked about it?, could he even hear a question if one was asked?, and did he have the power to respond in any way if somehow a dead person had the ability to hear?...NO. Yet Lazarus (a stinking corpse) walked out of that tomb, how did he hear his command and how did he have the ability to respond to it, unless God gave him the power to do so.

Going back to Romans 9:21, a rhetorical question was asked, "doesn't the potter have power over the clay"...we'll does it? And of the same lump makes one unto honor and another dishonor. What does the clay have to say about it?...it doesn't have ability to say anything about it, just ask Lazarus, IMO.
 
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Nope it says, that whosoever believes, and anyone can become a believer,(Anyone can have a change of heart, see the proof and evidence, have a Revelation, etc) so it's open to everyone.
 
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ddhurley

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Nope it says, that whosoever believes, and anyone can become a believer,(Anyone can have a change of heart, see the proof and evidence, have a Revelation, etc) so it's open to everyone.

Change of heart...how does that happen, and who does the changing? Can we change ourselves, or does God change us? Can we bring ourselves to life?...No.

AV Ezk 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

A heart of stone is dead, it cannot hear or see (the proof & evidence), it cannot respond the gospel, it is dead. First a heart has to be changed, then the gospel can be heard, then acceptance and belief are possible. (a dead heart cannot believe).

AV Eph 2:1-10 . And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins... For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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Stewlincoln

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Ephesians 2:1-10
Predestination is used as an inclusive term in the bible not an exclusive one. No one has been predestined to Hell. Sin did that for us all. God has chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This should be a very humbling thought for His children. The love it took for Him to reach out to us, a totally depraved creature diseased by the corrupt seed of Adam unable of any righteous works, making us acceptable through the sacrifice of Christ.
Let's entertain for a moment that as free willers the belief that we are able to make a righteous decision unto life through this dead flesh of ours. Let's suppose that will for good didn't come from the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, but from our own good from the corrupt seed. Would it really matter a hill of beans to the works that God wants us to accomplish in Him. Should it prevent us from doing the one work that free willers and electionest are all put here to do? That, of course, is to tell everyone of Christ and His abundant life. I have to believe that it's all about perspective. The free willers just don't care to focus on where that "free will" is really coming from. The electionest aren't here to convince people God's Holy Spirit regenerates, He'll take care of that in due time. We are all here to love our fellow man by bringing Christ to all and letting God do the rest.
 
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Jack Koons

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God never forces us to do anything. He does however create an environment that will 1) Let us see the truth; 2) Influence us to make the right decision.

God will not force anyone to be saved, but He makes the penalty of rejecting Him well known. He also by the same token does not force anyone to be forever lost by withholding the truth from them.

What every person receives is the truth from God, and a lie from Satan. Each person must make the decision before death, to believe God, or not. The unfortunate truth however is that Satan is really good a blinding the eyes of most people while on planet earth.

Man can do nothing to aid in the receiving of, or keeping the salvation given by God. Salvation is by faith in the The Lord Jesus Christ, that He will forgive all sin, past present, and future. One must understand that he, or she is deserving of the wrathfully judgement of God, and totally rely on the finished work of God. Furthermore we must understand that we an man have no, and will never have any righteousness of our own to present to God. His righteousness, and His righteousness alone is the only righteousness we can ever claim.

The only part we have in both salvation, and service, is to trust the Word of God, surrendering to Him by faith. That surrender, is the only "choice" we have the ability to do. When we surrender to God, He saves us. As we continue to surrender, we enter into the 'rest' of serving Him.

Jack
 
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Albion

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Well, that's one theory.



 
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Jack Koons

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In the Garden

I'm going to explain what happened in the Garden of Eden, and how that applies to us today. Furthermore, I will explain (for the purpose of other viewers) why predestination actually makes God a, 'not so nice person'. On the other hand, I will show that when mankind is truly given the choice whether or not to be saved; it is no longer God condemning the souls of individuals, (as in predestination)) but individuals condemn their own souls, by rejecting Jesus Christ.

Let's begin!

Who is God? God is truly greater than words can tell, greater than the human mind can comprehend. His strength is without measure, His knowledge more than can be put into print. His wisdom greater than all the created beings combined. He lives in the eternal state, which alone is beyond comprehension. He created time, and one day will bring it to its close.

I cannot emphasize two things enough: 1) God not only knows everything (general knowledge such as science, but knows our thoughts, what we have done, what we are doing, but He also knows every choice we will make about everything; great or small. 2) God uses this knowledge (of our future decisions) to provide us with an opportunity to make the right decision in the event that we make a wrong decision.

For example, God told Jonah to go to Nineveh; Jonah chose not to obey, and went in a different direction. However, since God already knew what choice Jonah was going to make, He prepared a fish (whale) to provide Jonah with an environment that would give Jonah an opportunity to rethink his choice. Jonah now had to make a choice: 1) Repent (change his mind about going to Nineveh); or 2) Refuse to repent, and be a yummy meal for the fish. God had a purpose for Jonah; preach to Nineveh. He also used this story for a second purpose; to show all who read this story for generations to come, God will provide us with "opportunities" to fulfill His purpose, and it is always easier (on us) if we obey God sooner, rather than later. Please understand, God knowing what Jonah was going to do both times, is not to be confused with God forcing, or predestinating Jonah to make those decisions. The one (foreknowledge) is God influencing Jonah to make the right decision through a provided circumstance; while the other (predestination) is forcing BOTH of Jonah's decisions, because Jonah had no choice but to act in the fore ordained way that God directed, good or bad.

Let's look at the beginning.

God created the universe in six days, and rested on the seventh day. On Earth, He planted a Garden named Eden, the place where Adam and Eve would live.

Gen. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

According to the above text there were two trees in the midst of the Garden; the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen. 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen. 3
1. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3. But of the fruit of the tree whichis in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here is where we are:

Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden. They DO NOT have a sin nature. They have been presented two conflicting 'stories' of what will happen if they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: 1) God says, You eat it, you die. 2) Satan says, You eat it, you will not die; and, your eyes will be opened!

One of them is telling the truth, and one of them is lying. It's just that simple. Adam must choose. Eve must choose.

Do I obey God, or do I not obey God; that was not only the question that Adam and Eve faced, it is the one we must face. God has given us His Word, the Bible. Within its pages we find the history of Earth, along with the Commandments of God. We also find the consequences of both obedience, and disobedience of His Commandments.

Like Adam, we are presented with God's side of the story, (found in His Word, the Bible); and Satan's side of the story, found in the "sin nature" (the knowledge of good and evil) we inherited from Adam's "wrong" decision. Adam was created innocent, as we are (although we are born with the "nature" to sin. Adam was innocent until he chose to disobey God. We as children grow up learning through our conscience "good and evil". (We know [even as a child] that it's wrong to steal cookies from the cookie jar, and then lie about it.) As Adam condemned himself when he chose not to obey the Commandant of God, we likewise condemn ourselves when we choose not to obey the Commandments of God written on our hearts (the knowledge of good and evil) that speak to us through our conscience.

Even Wayne Grudem, (a Calvinist) who is a Theologian and Professor of Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary states in his "Systematic Theology" under the heading of "The Covenant of Works" (which in its entirety, is too long to post) , "God sovereignly imposes this covenant on Adam and Eve, and they have no opportunity to change the details—their only choice is to keep it or to break it."

The problem of course with Calvinism however is their definition of "choice". You see, at another place, under the heading of "objections to the doctrine of election", paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.

"According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."

I'm sorry, either the choice is "absolutely free", or it's absolutely "not free", you can't have your cake, and eat it too"!

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.

John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".

It doesn't sound like Jesus was talking about the "elect", it sounded like He said, "whosoever"!

Adam had a choice in the Garden of Eden;
The people had a choice in the wilderness; and,
We have a choice today!

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Choose Jesus today!

Jack
 
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Albion

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I thought this thread was about predestination; I only named Calvinism because of its obvious connection to predestination.

Jack

It looks like this thread--which seemed to have died in 2012--was directed at a justification (or clarification) of Lutheran and/or Presbyterian beliefs. To that extent, it would be denomination-specific, I suppose. But in your posts, I can't find any particular denomination or it's views either specifically supported or rejected. That's what I thought, and I could have read too quickly.
 
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Jack Koons

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Predestination is taught in many denominations. From what I have read on the previous pages of this thread the doctrine of predestination is approached in a direct manner; not limiting it to just Lutheran and/or Presbyterian beliefs. Therefore, my approach is directed at the theology upon which all reformed denominations rest.

Jack
 
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Albion

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That means we're getting even less denomination-specific, but you weren't the one who started the thread or wrote the OP, so I should let it go. Thnx.
 
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