Pre-Destination

Hmmm?

Tangible said:

I agree that it is God's job to divide the sheep from the goats, to decide which of all us sinners he is saving. However, my tent is probably a bit larger than yours since I believe that it is God who does the saving, and we are all equally wretched sinners, beggars before God.

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I think our tents are about the same size. I do not see mankind any differently than you do.

Tangible said:

In my mind, probably the best question to ask a potential apostate is 'do you still believe in Christ for your salvation?'

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I think that is a good question. The answer may provide firm evidence, or possibly not, especially if the individual misunderstands faith. For example, many think that because they did something (repeated some words of a prayer, got baptized, etc.) that means that they still believe in Jesus Christ.

Tangible said:

You did not address the portion of my question that deals with someone who is a devout believer for a significant period of time, then ultimately rejects their faith and embraces anther religion or atheism, however.

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As we both know, those instances are rare, but they do happen and pose a problem for all concerned. Some, such as myself and Albion, believe that they never actually were genuine believers. Others, including yourself, believe that they were and thereby have become unbelievers. If one is a child of God by adoption one can never cease to be His child amy more than Jesus Christ could have ceased being the Son of God. God's promises are yea and amen. Hebrews tells us that He disciplines His children and those who do not receive discipline are not His children. Thus, if someone professes to be a Christian and then abandons his faith and God never disciplines and restores him to Himself, it provides evidence that his profession of salvation was merely a false profession.

Tangible said:

Before God saves us by gifting us with saving faith, our will is bound to our sinful flesh, but afterward we do have the ability to reject the gift once given and received. I find it scripturally inescapable that 1. God alone saves, and he will not let anyone take away his gift or wander away without being pursued and rescued, but also that 2. God allows us to reject his gift of saving faith if we decide to embrace unbelief.

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At least we agree on the first of your two points. I think that God, in love, has set limits so that, even as a father will prevent his child from endangering his life, even so God will not let anyone snatch His child from His hands, and that includes the individual being held.

Tangible said:

See the parable of the sower - those believe for a while, but ultimately are lost.

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The parable of the sower can also be understood as addressing those who make a false profession and abandon it in due time and thereby identify themselves as being lost. II Peter 2:22 makes it clear that a dog will return to its vomit and a pig to wallowing because of what they are. It is their nature to do so. If their nature is not altered they will do what comes naturally to them even though you might wash them thoroughly and dress time with fancy ribbons.

Tangible said:

In other words, scripture teaches that grace is irresistible, and that once saved, we can resist grace. Yes, this isn't logical, but it is scriptural.

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What you present is entirely logical, at least to myself. What we have in scripture are many verses assuring believers of their salvation along with other verses which can be construed as telling people that one can lose one's salvation. Obviously, both of these cannot be true.

Thank you for your excellent response. For now I will address your final point. It appears that you are denying the truth of some scripture because it seems not to agree with other scriptures. Would it not be better to conform your theology to scripture rather than forcing an interpretation of scripture that conforms to your theology?

Scripture teaches that the Christian is a totally justified saint before God. Scripture also teaches that the Christian remains a wretched sinner until he draws his last earthly breath.

Which is true?

Tangible said:

Thank you for your excellent response. For now I will address your final point. It appears that you are denying the truth of some scripture because it seems not to agree with other scriptures. Would it not be better to conform your theology to scripture rather than forcing an interpretation of scripture that conforms to your theology?

Scripture teaches that the Christian is a totally justified saint before God. Scripture also teaches that the Christian remains a wretched sinner until he draws his last earthly breath.

Which is true?

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Both. Paul, in Romans, clearly presents the case for total justification before God through faith alone and he also demonstrates his personal (and by logical transferrance, our own) sinful, wretched state.

Then why can both preservation and the possibility of apostasy not also be true?

Tangible said:

Then why can both preservation and the possibility of apostasy not also be true?

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Because it would either mean that God is true to His promise to hold each of His children in His hands, protecting them from any departure and assuring their salvation or it would mean that His promise is merely conditional and not to be understood as it is written.

bbbbbbb said:

Because it would either mean that God is true to His promise to hold each of His children in His hands, protecting them from any departure and assuring their salvation or it would mean that His promise is merely conditional and not to be understood as it is written.

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Or it could mean that God alone saves, and if one is damned they only have themselves to blame, whether they ever did at one time have faith in Christ or not.

As you said earlier, there are two messages in scripture regarding absolute preservation vs. possible apostasy. You can list in one column all the Gospel verses about how God is the one responsible for preserving his Church and all believers in the one true faith. You can also list in another column all the Law verses that warn that it is possible for a Christian saved by grace through faith, by persisting in sinful unbelief, to reach the point where God will allow him to go his own way and renounce his membership in God's family. I believe scripture speaks very clearly in both columns.

I've heard that the question of whether or not it is possible to lose one's salvation is most important to address when it comes up as a pastoral concern, not as an idle armchair theologian's discussion like ours. In such a case, it is wise to find out why the question is being asked.

Those who may be contemplating serious sin or who are entertaining false theologies should be reminded of the warning of the Law which shows that it is possible for a person once saved to ultimately be disqualified and fall away from saving faith.

Those who are fearful and full of remorse for some gross sin they have committed or those troubled over nagging doubts should be reminded of the sweet Gospel which shows that God is faithful to us even when we are unfaithful to him, and that he will always seek out the wandering sheep and bring them safely back into the fold.

Tangible said:

Or it could mean that God alone saves, and if one is damned they only have themselves to blame, whether they ever did at one time have faith in Christ or not.

As you said earlier, there are two messages in scripture regarding absolute preservation vs. possible apostasy. You can list in one column all the Gospel verses about how God is the one responsible for preserving his Church and all believers in the one true faith. You can also list in another column all the Law verses that warn that it is possible for a Christian saved by grace through faith, by persisting in sinful unbelief, to reach the point where God will allow him to go his own way and renounce his membership in God's family. I believe scripture speaks very clearly in both columns.

I've heard that the question of whether or not it is possible to lose one's salvation is most important to address when it comes up as a pastoral concern, not as an idle armchair theologian's discussion like ours. In such a case, it is wise to find out why the question is being asked.

Those who may be contemplating serious sin or who are entertaining false theologies should be reminded of the warning of the Law which shows that it is possible for a person once saved to ultimately be disqualified and fall away from saving faith.

Those who are fearful and full of remorse for some gross sin they have committed or those troubled over nagging doubts should be reminded of the sweet Gospel which shows that God is faithful to us even when we are unfaithful to him, and that he will always seek out the wandering sheep and bring them safely back into the fold.

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Thank you for your most excellent post. I think that we are really quite close in our understanding and I agree entirely that it is one thing to engage in an intellectual, armchair discussion and another to have to face this issue in pastoral counseling.

I will present an example for your consideration. I have a cousin who is a strong Arminian in her theology. Shortly after she was married she was delighted when her husband was called of God to enter the pastorate. He enrolled in a seminary and all things seemed to be going very well. His education, however, never seemed to end and she became the breadwinner for the family. In time she met another seminarian and became romantically entangled with him. Her husband divorced her, the other seminarian was expelled and she eventually married a third man (who also, shortly after marriage felt a divine call to the pastorate). During her extra-marital affair she informed us that she had lost her salvation, but would regain it later. Now she claims to have regained it (i.e. she is no longer immoral and thus is saved). In her view salvation is cheap and easily accepted or rejected.

My own perception of her situation is that she never actually has understood the gospel, having never understood the law. Thus, I submit that she did not lose something she never possessed.

One of the difficulties with the concept that a true believer can lose his salvation is the very stern statement in Hebrews 6 that it is impossible for such a person to be renewed to repentance (vs. 6). If the writer is referring to his readers, which verse 9 denies, then the popular view in much of Christendom that one can return to repentance and regain one's salvation is quite false. What do you think?

bbbbbbb said:

Thank you for your most excellent post. I think that we are really quite close in our understanding and I agree entirely that it is one thing to engage in an intellectual, armchair discussion and another to have to face this issue in pastoral counseling.

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I will present an example for your consideration. I have a cousin who is a strong Arminian in her theology. Shortly after she was married she was delighted when her husband was called of God to enter the pastorate. He enrolled in a seminary and all things seemed to be going very well. His education, however, never seemed to end and she became the breadwinner for the family. In time she met another seminarian and became romantically entangled with him. Her husband divorced her, the other seminarian was expelled and she eventually married a third man (who also, shortly after marriage felt a divine call to the pastorate). During her extra-marital affair she informed us that she had lost her salvation, but would regain it later. Now she claims to have regained it (i.e. she is no longer immoral and thus is saved). In her view salvation is cheap and easily accepted or rejected.

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First of all, I think she needs some serious pastoral (and possibly psychological) counseling.

I agree that gross, unrepentant sin can signify the kind of unbelief that can lead to apostasy, and that such a person needs to come under proper church discipline with a view to restoration. However, we all willfully sin many times a day, and sin is sin. Often we are unaware of our sins or simply put them out of our minds.

Repentance is like breathing in the life of the Christian. It sustains our life in Christ. We live like little fish in the waters of Baptism, and a fish cannot last long out of the water.

Here again, though, only God knows at what point a former believer has crossed the line into apostasy.

My own perception of her situation is that she never actually has understood the gospel, having never understood the law. Thus, I submit that she did not lose something she never possessed.

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This is quite possible, however only God knows for sure.

I agree that faith in Christ is not something we can voluntarily (and even flippantly) take up or lay down as a matter of the will. Just as God only knows when and to whom he gives saving faith, only he knows at which point one has crossed the line into apostasy.

I'll give you another scenario. A young man I met online once recounted to me how he had been raised in a Christian home, attended Sunday school as a child and was a youth leader later on. He knew what he believed and why he believed it, and was assured of his salvation in Christ. During college he began to doubt the veracity of some of the biblical accounts and to question the morality of God in others. Later as a young adult, he arrived at a crisis of faith, and through a very emotionally troubling time came to the conclusion that he no longer believed that Christianity was true.

Granted, he (afaik) is still living and has not persisted in unbelief until death, yet it seems very clear to me that at one time he had received saving faith in Christ, since he understood and did not reject spiritual truth and only those given faith by God can do so (1 Cor 2:14), yet later came to reject that gift of faith and had become apostate.

One of the difficulties with the concept that a true believer can lose his salvation is the very stern statement in Hebrews 6 that it is impossible for such a person to be renewed to repentance (vs. 6). If the writer is referring to his readers, which verse 9 denies, then the popular view in much of Christendom that one can return to repentance and regain one's salvation is quite false. What do you think?

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I think this is indeed a very difficult passage. Also, I think it is very dangerous for us to set up two categories of believers: believers and true believers.

Using scripture to interpret scripture I believe that this passage speaks of someone who persists in unbelief until death. One who once walked in faith in Christ and then leaves the path to find another way to salvation will not arrive at his desired destination.

Also, God punishes sin with sin. God will harden the hearts of those who harden their hearts against him. At the same time our God is merciful, and wills that all be saved.

We may not understand the ins and outs of salvation and apostasy, yet we can trust in the One who holds us in his hand and will not let us fall. Salvation belongs to the Lord. With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Tangible said:

First of all, I think she needs some serious pastoral (and possibly psychological) counseling.

I agree that gross, unrepentant sin can signify the kind of unbelief that can lead to apostasy, and that such a person needs to come under proper church discipline with a view to restoration. However, we all willfully sin many times a day, and sin is sin. Often we are unaware of our sins or simply put them out of our minds.

Repentance is like breathing in the life of the Christian. It sustains our life in Christ. We live like little fish in the waters of Baptism, and a fish cannot last long out of the water.

Here again, though, only God knows at what point a former believer has crossed the line into apostasy.

This is quite possible, however only God knows for sure.

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Fortunately, fish have gills and have been designed to live in water. Unfortunately, we do not have gills and will quickly drown if we are immersed too long in water. Baptism, like birth, is a relatively rapid event. Its long-term effects, however, last a lifetime. In the same way conversion is not to be conflated with sanctification as the Catholic church does. Sanctification commences at conversion and ends at death and is never actually completed during one's life on earth.

Tangible said:

I agree that faith in Christ is not something we can voluntarily (and even flippantly) take up or lay down as a matter of the will. Just as God only knows when and to whom he gives saving faith, only he knows at which point one has crossed the line into apostasy.

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By apostasy I assume that you mean a state of unbelief resulting in eternal damnation. If God has given saving faith to an individual, then He knows His own and no one can pluck them out of His hand, including that individual, no? I hate to be redundant about this matter. To put it another way, if one is born into a family when does one cease to be the offspring of one's parents?

Tangible said:

I'll give you another scenario. A young man I met online once recounted to me how he had been raised in a Christian home, attended Sunday school as a child and was a youth leader later on. He knew what he believed and why he believed it, and was assured of his salvation in Christ. During college he began to doubt the veracity of some of the biblical accounts and to question the morality of God in others. Later as a young adult, he arrived at a crisis of faith, and through a very emotionally troubling time came to the conclusion that he no longer believed that Christianity was true.

Granted, he (afaik) is still living and has not persisted in unbelief until death, yet it seems very clear to me that at one time he had received saving faith in Christ, since he understood and did not reject spiritual truth and only those given faith by God can do so (1 Cor 2:14), yet later came to reject that gift of faith and had become apostate.

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I think we all know situations like this. Indeed, scripture mentions similar individuals such as Demas (II Tim. 4:10) and possibly Crescens. Yet, I do not see where these individuals are consigned to eternal damnation as a result of their obvious apostasy. Even the incestuous man in Corinth who Paul personally turned over to Satan was done so for the destruction of his flesh, but not his spirit, and, as we know, did repent and was restored.

Tangible said:

I think this is indeed a very difficult passage. Also, I think it is very dangerous for us to set up two categories of believers: believers and true believers.

Using scripture to interpret scripture I believe that this passage speaks of someone who persists in unbelief until death. One who once walked in faith in Christ and then leaves the path to find another way to salvation will not arrive at his desired destination.

Also, God punishes sin with sin. God will harden the hearts of those who harden their hearts against him. At the same time our God is merciful, and wills that all be saved.

We may not understand the ins and outs of salvation and apostasy, yet we can trust in the One who holds us in his hand and will not let us fall. Salvation belongs to the Lord. With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

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I agree entirely that there are only believers (versus unbelievers). Some would draw a distinction between carnal and spiritual believers, but even they would not say that carnal believers have completely apostasized from the faith.

I assuredly agree wholeheartedly with your final paragraph.

bbbbbbb said:

Fortunately, fish have gills and have been designed to live in water. Unfortunately, we do not have gills and will quickly drown if we are immersed too long in water. Baptism, like birth, is a relatively rapid event. Its long-term effects, however, last a lifetime. In the same way conversion is not to be conflated with sanctification as the Catholic church does. Sanctification commences at conversion and ends at death and is never actually completed during one's life on earth.

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Chalk it up to a difference in view of Baptism. You got baptized, I am baptized. We are in essential agreement here.

By apostasy I assume that you mean a state of unbelief resulting in eternal damnation. If God has given saving faith to an individual, then He knows His own and no one can pluck them out of His hand, including that individual, no? I hate to be redundant about this matter. To put it another way, if one is born into a family when does one cease to be the offspring of one's parents?

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One may refuse to communicate with family members, deny one's heritage and never receive one's inheritance - effectively removing oneself from the benefits of family membership, even if not ceasing to be offspring in an absolute sense.

Those who will end up separated eternally from God are still God's children whom he wills to be saved are they not?

I think we all know situations like this. Indeed, scripture mentions similar individuals such as Demas (II Tim. 4:10) and possibly Crescens. Yet, I do not see where these individuals are consigned to eternal damnation as a result of their obvious apostasy. Even the incestuous man in Corinth who Paul personally turned over to Satan was done so for the destruction of his flesh, but not his spirit, and, as we know, did repent and was restored.

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So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 10:32-33 ESV)

I agree entirely that there are only believers (versus unbelievers). Some would draw a distinction between carnal and spiritual believers, but even they would not say that carnal believers have completely apostasized from the faith.

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There is a difference between a carnal believer and an unbeliever. I maintain that a believer may become an unbeliever.

I assuredly agree wholeheartedly with your final paragraph.

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Tangible said:

Chalk it up to a difference in view of Baptism. You got baptized, I am baptized. We are in essential agreement here.

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We are.

Tangible said:

One may refuse to communicate with family members, deny one's heritage and never receive one's inheritance - effectively removing oneself from the benefits of family membership, even if not ceasing to be offspring in an absolute sense.

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True.

Tangible said:

Those who will end up separated eternally from God are still God's children whom he wills to be saved are they not? So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

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Liberal theologians and universalists have made the argument that all of humanity consists of God's children and thus because He wills them to be saved, they will be saved. Christians, however, believe in particular salvation (or election or redemption, if you will) so that some will be saved and other will be lost. We know from scripture that he will all to be saved; however not all will be saved. We also believe that it is not a failure of God to do so and thus we understand a difference between His absolute will and His permissive will, as some would term it.

The verse you quoted has been used by some to buttress a works-based salvation (confessing Christ before men as a condition of salvation). Neither you nor I believe that works are required for salvation, but are the natural outworking of salvation. Confession comes from faith, not the other way around.

Tangible said:

(Matthew 10:32-33 ESV)There is a difference between a carnal believer and an unbeliever. I maintain that a believer may become an unbeliever.

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I do understand your view of salvation as a two-way door. Out of curiosity do you believe that if a believer becomes and unbeliever he can ever become a believer again?

Thanks again.

Predestination is an Unbiblical Doctrine, not Supported by The Bible.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Predestination has nothing to do with Christianity, God(The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) and The Bible.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Predestination is an Unbiblical Doctrine, not Supported by The Bible.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Predestination has nothing to do with Christianity, God(The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) and The Bible.

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I don't know what Bible you read, but my Bible has a New Testament book called Ephesian which begins with the following:

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

What do you think verse 5 actually means? BTW don't ever say that "predestination" is unbiblical.

bbbbbbb said:

I don't know what Bible you read, but my Bible has a New Testament book called Ephesian which begins with the following:

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

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And yet The Apostle Paul also said, That if(Keyword, IF, not elected to or predestined) you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

bbbbbbb said:

What do you think verse 5 actually means?

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Home

bbbbbbb said:

BTW don't ever say that "predestination" is unbiblical.

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It is unbiblical, I choose The Bible, What God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) says over man's doctrine,

if "predestination" were true then John 3:16 would say, "for God so loved the elect, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever He elects shall not perish, but have eternal life"

No, John 3:16 Is, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life - "predestination" is therefore Not Biblical, and Blasphemous, therefore predestination is not True, Free Choice is The Truth. John 3:16 destroys man's doctrine of "election", God offers Salvation for All.

Just like the man made "born sinners" doctrine, no one is born a sinner, that would be Blasphemy, we become sinners because Adam sinned, He let The Knowledge of Good and evil into the world, like a dad who's a serial killer, has a family and influences them into being killers, kids would inherit murderous tendencies because of their dad's influence, likewise we are are influenced to sin because our Parents Adam and Eve sinned, like the good kid who enters a class of bad kids, the kid will most likely be tempted/influenced to do bad things. we entered a world where people were already sinning, and that influence causes us to sin, not genetics, that would be a blasphemy.

I hope you leave the slander of calvinism, and embrace The Bible's True Doctrines. as calvinism is an unbiblical man doctrine, no one is elected or born a sinner. God offers Salvation and Repentance to All and we are given a clean slate, and are born into a world where we will be bound to sin.

SavedByChrist94 said:

if "predestination" were true then John 3:16 would say, "for God so loved the elect, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever He elects shall not perish, but have eternal life"

No, John 3:16 Is, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life - "predestination" is therefore Not Biblical

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But OTOH, if you want to take Jn 3.16 exactly literally--in order to have it prove free will--you'll have to interpret it to mean that every last person will be saved, i.e. universalism. You don't, do you?

In God's Plan, He predestined us to FREEDOM. That is to say, ... those who are chosen and predestined for eternal beatitude by God includes our FREE response to His grace.

God does not hold a gun and say, "stand back! ... its loaded!!" and then bestow His grace on us (in other words FORCING us to receive grace).

What kind of God is that?

Praised be the God of the New Israel, the sons of the freeborn!

Albion said:

But OTOH, if you want to take Jn 3.16 exactly literally--in order to have it prove free will--you'll have to interpret it to mean that every last person will be saved, i.e. universalism. You don't, do you?

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Nope, because again John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That whosoever Believes, that is a Choice. not universalism. therefore calvinism and universalism are false. no one is elected and not everyone is going to be Saved, both unfair and unbiblical.

The Truth is Unlimited Atonement and God gives it to those who Accept it. That is Biblical.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Nope, because again John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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OK, but now you've made the case for Election again.

Albion said:

OK, but now you've made the case for Election again.

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Why? That whosoever believes, so therefore The Elected(If you want to call it that) can be anyone.