Praying with the Saints

mikeforjesus said:

But I still see you are talking to saints you should not seek for them to make communication with you but only to let God hear their prayers to minister to us. But I don’t think you even need to ask God to do that they already pray for us if we do love them but to know they pray for you helps you

As the bible says may the Lord answer you in day of trouble we will be glad in your salvation and in the name of God we will lift up our banners your prayers will not be hindered if you get closer to God and love them. They pray already but they pray more the more you love them by knowing their life and trying to love God like them. So by trying to know how they walked close to God you are permitted to know that to get their prayers the more you seek to get closer to their life it is only allowed though them to know it the more you seek to know them to love them so you are requesting and getting their prayers.

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In our traditional Funeral rites we do pray for the dead, not because we can effect any positive outcome for them, but out of faith in God's promises to grant rest, peace, and eternal life to the faithful departed.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Why do we ask Christ since Christ already prays for us as well?

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A more appropriate question might be: Why does God need our prayers? Answer, He does not, but we do. He requires us to pray to Him to keep us close and faithful to Him.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

In our traditional Funeral rites we do pray for the dead, not because we can effect any positive outcome for them, but out of faith in God's promises to grant rest, peace, and eternal life to the faithful departed.

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Really? Can you show me.

A more appropriate question might be: Why does God need our prayers? Answer, He does not, but we do. He requires us to pray to Him to keep us close and faithful to Him.

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Praying to Mary and my dead family members brings me closer to them. I have found that when I deny invocation of the saints that the resurrection of Christ becomes a distant fact not something I experience or live out. I want to do what is right Biblically though. So I am torn.

Daniel Marsh said:

The Nature of God, he is not limited like we are.

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This is very true. But it doesn't mean that just any notion or theory that seems nice to us IS indeed what God will do.

The idea that Angels are running back and forth to heaven each day and that anybody who's died can hear our prayers or IS a proper object of our praying...even if that seems like a good idea...is not necessarily correct.

If the Bible teaches such things (which isn't the case with these particular theories), then we can affirm them. If God has not revealed such information to us in his holy word, then we may not make them into part of our belief system.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Really? Can you show me.

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The blessing before or as the Casket is brought into the Church, the Prayer of commendation before the casket is taken to the cemetery, the blessing of the grave, the prayer that God keep the remains until the resurrection, the committal service itself with includes the Requiem.

Praying to Mary and my dead family members brings me closer to them. I have found that when I deny invocation of the saints that the resurrection of Christ becomes a distant fact not something I experience or live out. I want to do what is right Biblically though. So I am torn.

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Praying to is a lot different than praying with; which is what we do each ligurgy; we pray with the whole Church, those living and all the saints who have gone before.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

The last part (in red below) was not generally included in the pre Trent Catholic usage:

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

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Interestingly the “Pray for us sinners, now and at the time of our death” portion was added by the Dutch Jesuit Peter Canisius in 1555. The Greek Orthodox, Russian Old Rite Orthodox / Old Believer (and also Ruthenian Catholic and Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox), and contemporary Russian Orthodox versions omit this:

Greek version:
Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice,
Mary full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Russian Old Rite and Carpatho-Rusyn/Ruthenian Church Slavonic version:
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos
Mary full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast borne Christ the Saviour,
the Deliverer of our souls.

Current Church Slavonic version (post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Belarussian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Czech and Slovak Orthodox, and some Polish Orthodox, and St. Panteilmon monastery on Mount Athos among others):
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos
Mary full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.

This all being said, I don’t think any Eastern Orthodox would have a problem with what Peter Canisius said. One of the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Syriac Orthodox, uses it verbatim and there is even a rubric allowing it to ne included in the Qawmo (the Syriac Orthodox equivalent of the Anglican preces and the Eastern Orthodox Usual Beginning, from the Divine Office in either case).* Peter Canisius, along with Robert Taft SJ, is one of the Jesuits I happen to like. He is venerated as a saint in the Roman Catholic Church and at first glance at least, such veneration appears broadly applicable except within the most intensely Calvinist churches; more specifically, his doctrine appears to fit within the broader continuum of liturgical Christianity alongside that of Luther, Hus, Laud, Pusey, and Dom Gregory Dix.

Interestingly, the Eastern Orthodox have the Hail Mary, but not the Rosary per se; their equivalent is the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, which consists of sets of 50 prayers prayed on a specially configured Lestovka, or leather prayer counter traditionally used by the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite churches and other Old Believers (I have one of these, and several in the traditional configuration; the traditional configuration consists of different groups of varying sizes for different prayers, I think its a group of 12, a group of 17 for the Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian, a group of 40 for the Kyrie Eleison, and a group of 33 for the Jesus Prayer - these groups, combined with certain other notches and counters, also allow one to use it for multiplication, in order to say a certain number of prayers of different types, especially within the parameters of the predefined sections; conversely I like prayer ropes when just saying the Jesus Prayer by itself).

Lutherans that use the Rosary, for the most part, will either omit the portion in red, or modify it this way since the Bible is clear that the Saints do pray for us; and their prayers rise like incense:
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray with us sinners,
hour of our death.

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Now just out of curiosity @MarkRohfrietsch what is the semantic difference between the common Lutheran usage, specifically the change from “for” to “with”, and the Roman Catholic usage and what are the broader oratorial, Mariological, and soteriological differences this reflects in your opinion?

Actually, you answered this question in the previous post. This being said, would you agree with me that asking a saint to pray for us is not praying to them as if they were a deity but rather seeking to pray with them? For example, the common Eastern Orthodox prayer “Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, save us O son of God” (or “Savior, save us”).

* In the Syriac Orthodox rubrics, in a congregational context, the Ave Maria is naturally sung (or some might say chanted) in the context of the Qawmo, which as I mentioned is used at the beginning of each of the Hours of their Divine Office, which are of course sung using the eight mode system of West Syriac Chant, which is comparable to the mode systems of chant**, so the full rubrics for the Qawmo use it in this manner (note the similarity to the Anglican preces used at Mattins, Evensong, the Litany and other divine offices, which @MarkRohfrietsch you will doubtless recall influenced most of the English language hymnals via the Common Service adopted from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer). Additionally, the chanting is also responsorial, as can be seen from these rubrics.

As far as I am aware, the Syriac church is the only one that directly incorporates the Ave Maria into a formal liturgical service, as opposed to using it as a devotional or private prayer, since, Roman Catholic members, correct me if I am wrong, but the Angelus and the Novena are not liturgies per se, right?

**Byzantine, Gregorian, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Georgian and the various systems of Slavonic chant from Russia, Ukraine and elsewhere such as Znamenny, Prostopinije, Valaam, Kievan, Imperial Court, and so on, are eight mode systems of chant (actually nine in the case of Gregorian, but most people are unaware of the ninth mode), while East Syriac chant is not divided into modes, and Coptic chant has its own system of modes, but I am not sure how many, as the modes are named, and there is one primary node used during the Divine Liturgy for most of the year, the “Annual Tone.” Perhaps @dzheremi or @Pavel Mosko might know.

Daniel Marsh said:

The definition allows for praying with the Holy Spirit or asking him to pray with us.

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Surely there should be no controversy about praying to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus Christ, since they are together with the Father among the three persons of the Holy and Undivided Trinity, fully God, uncreated, and consubstantial with the Father?

Prayers to the Holy Spirit are less common than prayers addressed to our Heavenly Father or Christ our Lord, but the Spirit is no less of a distinct Person with His own identity in the unity of the Holy Trinity, who proceeds from the Father, just as Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father before all ages, neither being creatures but rather very God of very God.

Thatgirloncfforums said:

Really? Can you show me.


Praying to Mary and my dead family members brings me closer to them. I have found that when I deny invocation of the saints that the resurrection of Christ becomes a distant fact not something I experience or live out. I want to do what is right Biblically though. So I am torn.

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I have been struck by how little doctrinal difference there is between @MarkRohfrietsch , @ViaCrucis and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox members of the forum, so if I were you, I wouldn’t worry about it that much.

Daniel Marsh said:

Stopped at post 20, my wife is home and is kicking me off the computer.

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Dude you need another computer! I own like 70 but thaf’s because my other job is embedded system programming.

Daniel Marsh said:

Those who were killed for their faith under the throne in heaven did pray for revenge.

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Where was that?

mikeforjesus said:

But I still see you are talking to saints you should not seek for them to make communication with you but only to let God hear their prayers to minister to us.

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Says who? This is not a scriptural doctrine. God, being omnipotent and being pure love, facilitates the intercessory prayer of the saints just as He receives our prayers directly.

IWalkAlone said:

that doesn't refute what I said. It doesn't prove the assertion made about the Spirit telling dead saints to pray for us either.

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There are no dead saints. Being a saint by definition means being alive in Christ. Some saints are martyred, or reposed peacefully, while a few, such as Elijah and the Virgin Mary were translated bodily to Heaven prior to reposing or on the occasion of their repose.

mikeforjesus said:

Instead of praying to a saint as we are not to communicate with those who passed physically

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The saints are alive in Christ, which is what matters, for the majority of Christians who reject the erroneous doctrines of “soul sleep” and the idea that we are dead until we are resurrected.

mikeforjesus said:

Also I never suggested that but such ideas are found in church as said by St Hippolytus of Rome who is great Church Father that teaches antichrist will even raise the dead or he said appear to I don’t remember which is impossible I can agree he might be able to appear to but it would be a false sign and wonder if satan takes form of people who passed but we know it is not genuine and real if it is not same body you see that died and rot before your eyes and then was raised

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On the subject of antichrist, we have to differentiate between what he will do, which lies in the future, and the miracles which have occurred in the past, which were the result of saints cooperating with and participating in what St. Gregory of Palamas would call the uncreated energies of God. God blesses the most pious Christians with certain charisms to ease suffering and to spread the Gospel of Christ, as he blessed the Apostles, while they are alive in this world and also in the next. The power to do these things is of course of divine origin.

GreekOrthodox said:

The Eastern and Western liturgies (Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican) contain this prayer (or a paraphrase) prior to Communion;

It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you and saying…

Holy, holy, holy Lord, Lord God of power and might: Heaven and earth are full of Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.​

So even for Lutherans and Anglicans who would reject specific prayer to the saints, do acknowledge that they pray with the saints in heaven.

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Indeed so, the Sanctus is one of the common elements that unifies the Eastern and Western liturgical traditions. Actually, I have never seen a complete Eucharistic liturgy without it.

IWalkAlone said:

your claim didn't prove that the Spirit tells dead saints to pray for us.

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I don’t think there is a need to since the phrase “dead saints” is according to scriptural and soteriological semantics, an oxymoron (that is to say, it is self-contradictory).

concretecamper said:

if they are members of His body, and we are members of His body, there is no difference between you praying for me or another member of His body, except their prayer is more efficacious becasue they are more righteous(see James)

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This is also a very good point, in that while we are still struggling in this life, we might fall away, whereas the saints have been glorified and are known to be in Heaven (this is most especially the case with the Martyrs).

The Liturgist said:

Surely there should be no controversy about praying to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus Christ, since they are together with the Father among the three persons of the Holy and Undivided Trinity, fully God, uncreated, and consubstantial with the Father?

Prayers to the Holy Spirit are less common than prayers addressed to our Heavenly Father or Christ our Lord, but the Spirit is no less of a distinct Person with His own identity in the unity of the Holy Trinity, who proceeds from the Father, just as Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father before all ages, neither being creatures but rather very God of very God.

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When we begin a prayer with the Trinitarian Invocation we are, in fact, calling upon all three persons of the Trinity.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

When we begin a prayer with the Trinitarian Invocation we are, in fact, calling upon all three persons of the Trinity.

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Indeed so. Many Orthodox prayers, particularly those in the Syriac Orthodox tradition, are addressed to a specific person, but then conclude with a Trinitarian invocation, for example, here is one addressed to the Father:

“O Lord, may all Your graces and all Your blessings and all Your gifts come and descend, and be showered upon Your Church, upon Your sheep and upon Your flock, that we may offer You praise and thanksgiving and to Your Only-begotten Son and to Your Holy Spirit, now, always and forever.”

And here is one addressed to the Son:

“O heavenly Bread, the Christ Who condescended toward us that He might become imperishable food for us, make us not, on Your second coming, food for the unquenchable fire that we may offer You praise and thanksgiving and to Your Father and to Your Holy Spirit, now, always and forever.”

Both of these are from the same Eucharistic prayer, the Anaphora of St. Sixtus, which is one of around 15 translated into English, out of a total of 86 (the West Syriac liturgical tradition, including the Syriac Orthodox and the Maronites, have more Anaphoras by far than anyone else, and I think if you combined the Syriac Orthodox and Maronite anaphoras, which partially overlap but also contain non-overlapping material), you might have as many as 170, however, sadly, a few centuries back the RCC suppressed most of the Maronite anaphoras and imposed the Roman Canon on many of them; at Vatican II this was reversed, but there are only five anaphoras in use, and the text has been more severely “simplified” than even the Missale Romanum, so the exquisite ornate prayers that once characterized both the Syriac Orthodox and the Maronite Catholic churches are now heard only among the Orthodox. The Syriac Catholics, who separated from the Syriac Orthodox in the late 18th century, I think, still have an ornate liturgy as far as I am aware, but they kept only six anaphoras.