Praying with the Saints

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 8, 2021

What Does the Bible Say About Contacting The Dead?

It seems that the Bible is referring to necromancy.
On the other hand, the verse that stood out to me was:
'...Should not a people inquire of their God?'
--As it seems to command us to call directly upon God. But did the ancients do such or did the Prophets mediate?

prodromos said:
You seem to equate prayer with worship when "pray" is simply another word for "ask". Asking the Saints for their intercession is not an act of worship.
You also appear to divide Christ's body. When we are joined to Christ's body on becoming Christians we have already passed from death to life. That does not get put on hold or reversed in any way when we pass away, we are still members of Christ's body whether our own flesh has stopped breathing or not. Christ's body, the Church, is one. Christ does not have a living body containing the living Christians and a dead body containing the dead Christians, He has one body in which all Christians are manifest. There is literally nothing separating the living Christians from the dead Christians as is evident from the 2000 year witness of the Church.
You also appear to have a wrong understanding of what necromancy is. Necromancy was the calling up of the spirits of the dead for the purpose of learning secret information. That is not what prayer to the Saints is.

prodromos · Dec 8, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
What Does the Bible Say About Contacting The Dead?

It seems that the Bible is referring to necromancy.
On the other hand, the verse that stood out to me was:
'...Should not a people inquire of their God?'
--As it seems to command us to call directly upon God. But did the ancients do such or did the Prophets mediate?

We aren't inquiring of the Saints in any kind of sense associated with necromancy. We don't seek knowledge of future events or for secrets to be revealed (like "where did grandpa stash his gold?"). Praying to the Saints is in response to James 5:16, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Christians live in a post resurrection reality which did not exist in the time of the Old Covenant. Christ has defeated death and removed its power over those who are in Christ. There is no seperation between Christians who are living and Christians who are dead because we are one body. This is born out by the consistent witness of the Church for two millenia.

The Liturgist · Dec 9, 2021

prodromos said:
That is not our experience. Throughout the history of the Church God has greatly blessed those who have sought the intercessions of the Saints. If it was not in accordance with His will, God would not bless it abundantly as He does.

This is certainly the case, which is why we see intercessory prayer even within Protestantism. Even within Anglicanism thanks to the Tractarians.

The Liturgist · Dec 9, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
What Does the Bible Say About Contacting The Dead?

It seems that the Bible is referring to necromancy.
On the other hand, the verse that stood out to me was:
'...Should not a people inquire of their God?'
--As it seems to command us to call directly upon God. But did the ancients do such or did the Prophets mediate?

So Necromancy is where one attempts to contact the dead in order to find out what definitely will happen in the future. It is incompatible with traditional Christianity in that for that to work, it would require determinism, and also it would presuppose that demons could not influence it, which many early church fathers right through the Second Council of Nicaea considered to have happened in the case of the Witch of Endor incident, with King Saul.

Now, that is very different from the doctrine confirmed at the Second Council of Nicaea, which validates the veneration of the saints and arguably, while not, to my recollection, defining intercessory prayer, certainly provides us with a scriptural and doctrinal basis for it.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 10, 2021

mikeforjesus said:
Instead of praying to a saint as we are not to communicate with those who passed physically we know they are ministers for good perhaps God can help from them so it is best just to ask God to accept their prayers from us to minister to us

If you prayed Hail Mary prayer it is best to alter the prayer to ask God to let her pray for you to help

The last part (in red below) was not generally included in the pre Trent Catholic usage:

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Lutherans that use the Rosary, for the most part, will either omit the portion in red, or modify it this way since the Bible is clear that the Saints do pray for us; and their prayers rise like incense:
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray with us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

mikeforjesus · Dec 10, 2021

But I still see you are talking to saints you should not seek for them to make communication with you but only to let God hear their prayers to minister to us. But I don’t think you even need to ask God to do that they already pray for us if we do love them but to know they pray for you helps you

As the bible says may the Lord answer you in day of trouble we will be glad in your salvation and in the name of God we will lift up our banners your prayers will not be hindered if you get closer to God and love them. They pray already but they pray more the more you love them by knowing their life and trying to love God like them. So by trying to know how they walked close to God you are permitted to know that to get their prayers the more you seek to get closer to their life it is only allowed though them to know it the more you seek to know them to love them so you are requesting and getting their prayers.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 10, 2021

This goes back to the idea that the merit of Christ is all-sufficient. There is a difference between Mary praying in fellowship with us and Mary praying for us as if her merits were reckoned to us.

MarkRohfrietsch said:
The last part (in red below) was not generally included in the pre Trent Catholic usage:

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Lutherans that use the Rosary, for the most part, will either omit the portion in red, or modify it this way since the Bible is clear that the Saints do pray for us; and their prayers rise like incense:
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray with us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 10, 2021

Why do we ask Christ since Christ already prays for us as well?

mikeforjesus said:
But I still see you are talking to saints you should not seek for them to make communication with you but only to let God hear their prayers to minister to us. But I don’t think you even need to ask God to do that they already pray for us if we do love them but to know they pray for you helps you

As the bible says may the Lord answer you in day of trouble we will be glad in your salvation and in the name of God we will lift up our banners Your prayers will not be hindered if you get closer to God and love them. They pray already but they pray more the more you love them by knowing their life and trying to love God like them. So by trying to know how they walked close to God you are permitted to know that to get their prayers the more you seek to get closer to their life it is only allowed though them to know it the more you seek to know them to love them so you are requesting and getting their prayers.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 10, 2021

We have examples in the OT of saints praying for Israel.

prodromos said:
We aren't inquiring of the Saints in any kind of sense associated with necromancy. We don't seek knowledge of future events or for secrets to be revealed (like "where did grandpa stash his gold?"). Praying to the Saints is in response to James 5:16, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Christians live in a post resurrection reality which did not exist in the time of the Old Covenant. Christ has defeated death and removed its power over those who are in Christ. There is no seperation between Christians who are living and Christians who are dead because we are one body. This is born out by the consistent witness of the Church for two millenia.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
If praying to Saints was biblical we would see evidence but we dont. The apostles didn't pray to dead saints. Paul didn't pray to Stephan. He prayed to the Lord.

Friend, it is praying with the saints in heaven, not praying to them.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
I see no evidence that The Spirit tells the dead saints to pray for us.

Why would not loved ones in heaven not pray for loved one's on earth? Hebrews 12 body of witnesses.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

Albion said:
None of this appears to be based on Scripture. And it's not commonly believed by Christians, either Catholic or Protestant, in any case. So where did you come up with these notions?

We know that the saints pray for us, but not that we are to pray to them.

The Nature of God, he is not limited like we are.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. The Holy Spirit "intercedes for us" with what deity in heaven??? one of our recently departed relatives? Is that who the Holy Spirit goes to - to intercede for us?
2. I don't know of any text saying "the Holy Spirit brings our names to the minds of saints in heaven"

Rom 8 says it is God the Father that is reading the mind of the Spirit to determine the prayer request made by someone on Earth -- as it is "improved" by the Holy Spirit.

26 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

It does not say "He intercedes between saints in heaven and saints on earth"

In the Bible - people are earth - are "the saints".

====================

Psalm 16:3
As for the saints who are on the earth, They are the majestic ones; all my delight is in them.

Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints in Jerusalem;

Acts 9:32 Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he also came down to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Acts 26:10
And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, after receiving authority from the chief priests, but I also cast my vote against them when they were being put to death.

Romans 12:13
contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

Romans 15:26
For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

Romans 16:15
Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you are to do as well.

Revelations are progressive.

Definition of intercede

intransitive verb

: to intervene between parties with a view to reconciling differences : MEDIATE

The definition allows for praying with the Holy Spirit or asking him to pray with us.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Revelations are progressive.

Definition of intercede

intransitive verb

: to intervene between parties with a view to reconciling differences : MEDIATE

The definition allows for praying with the Holy Spirit or asking him to pray with us.

"In ecclesiastical usage both words are taken in the sense of the intervention primarily of Christ, and secondarily of the Blessed Virgin and the angels and saints, on behalf of men. It would be better, however, to restrict the word mediation to the action of Christ, and intercession to the action of the Blessed Virgin, the angels, and the saints. In this article we shall briefly deal with: I. the Mediation of Christ; and at more length with, II. the intercession of the saints.

...
Intercession and invocation
We shall here speak not only of intercession, but also of the invocation of the saints. The one indeed implies the other; we should not call upon the saints for aid unless they could help us. The foundation of both lies in the doctrine of the communion of saints. In the article on this subject it has been shown that the faithful in heaven, on earth, and in purgatory are one mystical body, with Christ for their head. All that is of interest to one part is of interest to the rest, and each helps the rest:
...
This had already been explained by St. Thomas:

Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray
"
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

The words used to express it in Scripture are: to call up (Genesis 4:26); to intercede (Job 22:10); to mediate (Isaiah 53:10); to consult (1 Samuel 28:6); to beseech (Exodus 32:11); and, very commonly, to cry out to. The Fathers speak of it as the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, On the Orthodox Faith III.24);CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Prayer

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

Genesis 18:16
Abraham Intercedes for Sodom. With Abraham walking with them to see them on their way, the men set out from there and looked down toward Sodom.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

BobRyan said:
Suppose then - that you pray for someone who died without accepting Christ - is it your view that God goes back in time - gets them to accept the gospel while alive and then after your prayer they are now a saved saint?? Do you think the "Timeline changes" with your prayers - or ??

The other alternative is that God looks forward in time - sees that you will pray that prayer -- and so then in real time during the life of that person causes them to be a born-again Christian. However in that case - how would you ever know to pray as if they had not accepted Christ??

messing around with the timeline is not something that you see in the Bible - in terms of "Changing history" because it requires the idea that God learns something today - about what He was supposed to do in the past - but neglected to do.

I believe God will draw them to his Son, thus the timeline can change or remain the same.
God is not limited to time and He would know that we were to make that prayer even before we think of doing it.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
The dead saints don't pray for us. Prove they do

Those who were killed for their faith under the throne in heaven did pray for revenge. Thus it is reasonable that family and friends in Heaven will pray for those they love on earth.

It is really common sense that people pray for others to finish the race.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

IWalkAlone said:
that doesn't refute what I said. It doesn't prove the assertion made about the Spirit telling dead saints to pray for us either.

Please let God out of your box friend.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 10, 2021

Stopped at post 20, my wife is home and is kicking me off the computer.

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