Prayer out but spellcasting stays

heart of peace · Feb 3, 2008

This is something that I have an issue with and I wish there was a way to address it to the "powers that be." Ok, I realize that we live in a society that requires complete separation of church and state (for those in the US) and that this concept is being taken to the extreme in recent years. In schools, God (on any level) cannot be mentioned, open prayer is not allowed, et cetera. On television, it is common to see cartoons of violence before one sees cartoons centered on God - even Veggie Tales was altered in order to be broadcasted on NBC.

So, then, why are cartoons (storybooks in school) allowed with no objection where the characters are casting spells, conducting magic and what have you. Just because they do not say they are part of the Wiccan religion does not mean that this is not exactly that. On PBS, there are about 2 cartoons I can think of alone that have Wiccan elements to it and this is considered acceptable. I just think it should be fair, if God and prayer cannot be mentioned, then spell casting should not be allowed as well.

Agree/disagree?

Mskedi · Feb 3, 2008

I think there's a difference between fantasy (say, Harry Potter, Dresden Files, Buffy...) and Wicca.

If there's no worship involved, I think it falls into the fantasy realm and needn't be compared to religion.

That said, if a station wants to run a religious show, then they should. If there's viewers, it will stay on. If there aren't, it will get cancelled. Simple enough. It's a matter of supply and demand.

As far as prayer in public schools... there's nothing that says you, as an individual, can't pray. The school simply can't hold prayers. We have several religious clubs on campus that pray quite frequently and aren't in any way breaking Education Codes.

I do think that people have misinterpreted the separation of church and state, though. It's gotten to the point where people's religious freedom is infringed upon, as far as I can see it.

Laurie919 · Feb 3, 2008

I can't stand that they allow these things in our schools. I don't want Taylor watching anything with magic, spells, or witchcraft. I don't even like her watching scooby.

The school district we live in they do still pray at ball games and things. I just pray it stays like that.

moonkitty · Feb 3, 2008

MsDahl said:
This is something that I have an issue with and I wish there was a way to address it to the "powers that be." Ok, I realize that we live in a society that requires complete separation of church and state (for those in the US) and that this concept is being taken to the extreme in recent years. In schools, God (on any level) cannot be mentioned, open prayer is not allowed, et cetera. On television, it is common to see cartoons of violence before one sees cartoons centered on God - even Veggie Tales was altered in order to be broadcasted on NBC.

So, then, why are cartoons (storybooks in school) allowed with no objection where the characters are casting spells, conducting magic and what have you. Just because they do not say they are part of the Wiccan religion does not mean that this is not exactly that. On PBS, there are about 2 cartoons I can think of alone that have Wiccan elements to it and this is considered acceptable. I just think it should be fair, if God and prayer cannot be mentioned, then spell casting should not be allowed as well.

Agree/disagree?

*sigh*
Contrary to popular hysteria whipped up by the religious right students are allowed to pray, even openly in school (as long as the openly part does not involve disturbing class time. You are not allowed to stand up in the middle of algebra and loudly pray.) Students are allowed to discus religion, even with teachers. What is not allowed is endorsement of religion by having prayer enforced or mandated. This also means student are not forced to say the pledge of allegiance since it contains an oath to god. Schools are also allowed to have religious books in the library, including the bible.

Harry Potteralso contrary to the right wing spin jobis not associated with Wicca or any other non-Christian religion I am aware of. It is not a religious text. But if you want to go the route of removing anything that mentions magic or violence from the school then you are going to have to include all fairy tales, 99% of history, and most classical literature. Youll probably have to do away with math as well since the bible defines pi as being equal to 3 and in reality it is equal to 3.14159265.

heart of peace · Feb 3, 2008

moonkitty, when I read your *sigh*, I feel bewildered. I am needing to approach a topic without any snarkiness and I don't know how else to interpret your exasperation with me as I have never engaged in a dialogue with you over this topic. FYI, I speak from experience, I am a teacher by profession and I know first hand what occurs in the schools. Also, what does pi or having our schools in the US based on Biblical concepts have to do with my topic? It appears you are making sweeping generalizations about me based on my one post. I feel baffled by your response all around.

For the record, I do not take objection with the cartoons/books that have spellcasting, witches, sorcerers, magic as part of the plot (I actually enjoyed all the Harry Potters and Teen Witch was my jam as a pre-teen...lol). I take objection with the open promotion of spellcasting and open suppression of prayers [I am referring to storybooks or cartoons of this nature not what individuals are able to do on their own] in our society. I believe in equal treatment. Teachers are allowed to incorporate books that promote spellcasting in their lessons but not a book that promotes prayers (without mention to the Christian God). PBS is a public broadcasting station and I believe that there should be equality among the programming offered.

This is my opinion, you are free to disagree with it but I do ask that it be done in a respectful and mature manner without snide comments or sounds. Thank you in advance

jgonz · Feb 3, 2008

What it boils down to is that freedom of religion doesn't _really_ exist in our country. Tolerance doesn't really exist either.... only if you agree with the "other" side are they ok with you being a Believer.

jgonz · Feb 3, 2008

(Sorry, double post. My computer freaked out.)

Leanna · Feb 3, 2008

MsDahl said:
This is something that I have an issue with and I wish there was a way to address it to the "powers that be." Ok, I realize that we live in a society that requires complete separation of church and state (for those in the US) and that this concept is being taken to the extreme in recent years. In schools, God (on any level) cannot be mentioned, open prayer is not allowed, et cetera. On television, it is common to see cartoons of violence before one sees cartoons centered on God - even Veggie Tales was altered in order to be broadcasted on NBC.

So, then, why are cartoons (storybooks in school) allowed with no objection where the characters are casting spells, conducting magic and what have you. Just because they do not say they are part of the Wiccan religion does not mean that this is not exactly that. On PBS, there are about 2 cartoons I can think of alone that have Wiccan elements to it and this is considered acceptable. I just think it should be fair, if God and prayer cannot be mentioned, then spell casting should not be allowed as well.

Agree/disagree?

What I hear you saying here is that why should there be TV shows that have spell casting if Veggie Tales has to edit out the part with the Bible verse? I agree, I think its a double standard.

I am a little confused on how this is being linked to schools and prayer ... I don't think I get it....

moonkitty · Feb 4, 2008

MsDahl said:
moonkitty, when I read your *sigh*, I feel bewildered. I am needing to approach a topic without any snarkiness and I don't know how else to interpret your exasperation with me as I have never engaged in a dialogue with you over this topic. FYI, I speak from experience, I am a teacher by profession and I know first hand what occurs in the schools. Also, what does pi or having our schools in the US based on Biblical concepts have to do with my topic? It appears you are making sweeping generalizations about me based on my one post. I feel baffled by your response all around.

For the record, I do not take objection with the cartoons/books that have spellcasting, witches, sorcerers, magic as part of the plot (I actually enjoyed all the Harry Potters and Teen Witch was my jam as a pre-teen...lol). I take objection with the open promotion of spellcasting and open suppression of prayers [I am referring to storybooks or cartoons of this nature not what individuals are able to do on their own] in our society. I believe in equal treatment. Teachers are allowed to incorporate books that promote spellcasting in their lessons but not a book that promotes prayers (without mention to the Christian God). PBS is a public broadcasting station and I believe that there should be equality among the programming offered.

This is my opinion, you are free to disagree with it but I do ask that it be done in a respectful and mature manner without snide comments or sounds. Thank you in advance

I too have worked in the school system as a teachers aide, a sub. And now as an intern, and will be working as a teacher next year. So I too am aware of what goes on in school and I have not seen any student ever get in trouble for praying. I have even seen teachers have before school prayer groups. The only thing I have not seen is schools forcing kids to pray.

The *sigh* was not at you, but at the whole silly idea that children are not allowed to pray in schools when clearly they are. And the whole bru-ha-ha over Harry Potter. IT IS NOT A RELIGIOUS TEXT. Even if it was students are still allowed to read it in school. Just as they are allowed to bring their bible to school. Guess What? In One 11grade English class I subbed for one had several Psalms in it.

JulySheMustFly · Feb 4, 2008

First, I feel like we are discussing two different topics so I'm going to try to keep my thoughts clear but I make no promises.

It is my understanding that school sanctioned prayer is no good but student organized prayer during non-class times that does not disrupt teaching time.

I have no problem with public schools not having sanctioned prayer time. My children know that they can pray any time they want and no one can stop them because God hears anywhere.

I also have no problem with the school not teaching about God. I'd much rather not have to wade through the confusion that they could potentially cause in my children depending on what kind of "christian" god they decide to portray. For the record that is also why we will not be sending our children to a private christian school.

As for spell casting, Wicca etc. In books, television shows and movies that are fantasy based I have no problem. I feel fantasy exploration for my children is very important to develop their own creative thought and give them the discernment they need between fantasy and reality.

I also have no problem that Veggie Tales had to remove the God parts from their shows for tv. IMO at least their are still solid Godly morals portrayed. From there I can have a discussion with my children about God if I want.

I had more thoughts on this but was interrupted so many times I'm not sure what they were anymore. Someone lied to me when they said pregnancy brain went away after the child was born.

Meshavrischika · Feb 4, 2008

It really depends on where you live (the school prayer thing). Our little town has open prayer to God at all sporting functions, and major events. No one causes a rucus, so no one has stopped school organized prayer (yet - I'm sure it is coming).

I see no problem with the cartoons on today for the most part. I'm way more offended by toilet humor than I am pseudo-magic stuff (like pokemon, etc.). As for them altering veggie tales, that was the network's call, not the FCC. My girls understand veggie tales is a christian show.

Pregnancy brain is forever July.

Sign Of The Fish Burger · Feb 4, 2008

JulySheMustFly said:
First, I feel like we are discussing two different topics so I'm going to try to keep my thoughts clear but I make no promises.

It is my understanding that school sanctioned prayer is no good but student organized prayer during non-class times that does not disrupt teaching time.

I have no problem with public schools not having sanctioned prayer time. My children know that they can pray any time they want and no one can stop them because God hears anywhere.

I also have no problem with the school not teaching about God. I'd much rather not have to wade through the confusion that they could potentially cause in my children depending on what kind of "christian" god they decide to portray. For the record that is also why we will not be sending our children to a private christian school.

As for spell casting, Wicca etc. In books, television shows and movies that are fantasy based I have no problem. I feel fantasy exploration for my children is very important to develop their own creative thought and give them the discernment they need between fantasy and reality.

I also have no problem that Veggie Tales had to remove the God parts from their shows for tv. IMO at least their are still solid Godly morals portrayed. From there I can have a discussion with my children about God if I want.

I had more thoughts on this but was interrupted so many times I'm not sure what they were anymore. Someone lied to me when they said pregnancy brain went away after the child was born.

Couldn't agree with this (specifically bolded) post more.

heart of peace · Feb 4, 2008

Hello, I think I should clarify. I am referring to the publicly funded media sources that are available to us - this would include PBS, library events, school lesson plans, et cetera.

In regards to the fantasy aspect of it versus it being a religion, why then is any form of prayer considered religious? Prayer in and of itself is not religious unless it is deemed as such (prayers to a deity of some sort); yet prayer is not portrayed on any level in cartoons or are teachers allowed to read books on prayers. Spellcasting on the other hand is considered acceptable and this is my issue. That is an obvious double standard and one that irks me. There are only 3 channels I allow my son to watch: Noggin, Disney and PBS. I would never have expected to be confronted with spellcastings on PBS but alas I have. Spellcasting is a very prominent aspect to Wicca and I think should be censored the way prayer is.

FYI, I am an avid believer in magical play - I support it wholeheartedly in my child especially during his young childhood days.

JulySheMustFly · Feb 4, 2008

Is there a particular show you have in mind?

I'm also struggling to understand how prayer is not always an act of worship to some god.

morningstar2651 · Mar 5, 2008

I don't recall learning the LBRP in public school or on PBS.

How are schools encouraging students to cast spells/discouraging prayer?

bliz · Mar 9, 2008

MsDahl said:
Ok, I realize that we live in a society that requires complete separation of church and state (for those in the US) and that this concept is being taken to the extreme in recent years. In schools, God (on any level) cannot be mentioned, open prayer is not allowed, et cetera.

I am sorry, you have been misinformed about current laws regarding religion in the public schools in the US. The best statement of this is The Equal Access Act.
http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html

Essentially, religious expression is permitted as are other expressions in school. If there are school clubs, there is no reason why there cannot be a Bible club or a Praise club. If students are to do book reports, a student may select a religious book, of any religion. Students may wear clothing with religious expressions on them. Students may give speeches on religious topics. God can be mentioned in class discussions by students and in private conversations.

I know that many school districts overstate the government position probably out of an attempt to avoid problems. And I am sick to death of religious leaders who wish to overstate the regulations out of an attempt to frighten people and raise funds for their "ministry".

Prayer out but spellcasting stays

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