Praise the Lord we Got a forum!!!!!

Originally posted by Andrew
I am very glad to know that I adhere to this doctrine because I believe it to be the most Biblical of doctrines.
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So are you saying Calvinism is almost perfect and "better" than all other protestant doctrines?

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It is not perfect in the sense that Jesus was perfect; but, yes, I believe that it is the most correct of doctrines.

I have 2 more questions for you humblejoe,

1. I can see that the title Calvinist means a lot to you, and you do feel that Calvinist are more right than other protestants and that it is your "duty" to 'bring back purity' to the gospel. how then do u reconcile these verses of trying to be diffrent/separate from other Christians:

1Co 1:12* Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 3:4* For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

2. u said: "we are fighting against a wide spread "other gospel", or at least an extremely prevalent erred concept of the true gospel."

Isnt it God who confirms the preaching of his word with Spirit power, signs and miracles as we see in Acts? So if someone preaches a sermon on salvation, God's grace etc and there are souls saved (miracles nonetheless ) plus healings mircacles etc, are u going to say that what was preached was wrong becos it did not contain the 5 pts of Calvinism?

Here is an article by a Calvinist defining "hypercalvinism":
http://www.gty.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
and below is an article by a 4 point Calvinist whom I agree with.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
I'd like your opinions on these. Humblejoe, what do you think of evangelism and missions? Some Calvinists have called both pointless and even wrong.

Originally posted by Andrew
I have 2 more questions for you humblejoe,

1. I can see that the title Calvinist means a lot to you, and you do feel that Calvinist are more right than other protestants and that it is your "duty" to 'bring back purity' to the gospel. how then do u reconcile these verses of trying to be diffrent/separate from other Christians:

1Co 1:12* Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 3:4* For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

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The passages you refer to are talking about placing another man above Christ. I do not believe that they followed these individuals because of differing doctrine. I mean, just how much do you think the doctrines of Christ and Paul differed? I believe that they developed these different loyalties predominantly because of other characteristics, such as charisma, formal education, speaking skills, compassion, personal testimony, personality, etc. It's just like someone prefering one pastor to another. I'm sure you all have had your favorite pastors. I've seen people leave a church because a favorite youth pastor left. When you put the admiration of a single pastor above your loyalty to a church body, something is wrong.

I do not worship Calvin. His name is used as a title because he most succinctly described the tenets of Reformed doctrine. I wasn't cleansed by the blood of Calvin; I was cleansed by the blood of Christ. In the words of Charles Spurgeon:

"It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

I do not feel as though I am trying to seperate from other Christians, but rather, as you have said, "'bring back purity' to the gospel".

2. u said: "we are fighting against a wide spread "other gospel", or at least an extremely prevalent erred concept of the true gospel."

Isnt it God who confirms the preaching of his word with Spirit power, signs and miracles as we see in Acts? So if someone preaches a sermon on salvation, God's grace etc and there are souls saved (miracles nonetheless ) plus healings mircacles etc, are u going to say that what was preached was wrong becos it did not contain the 5 pts of Calvinism?

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I would not say that it is ineffective, because God's regenerative grace is eternally sufficient, although I would say that it may be somewhat lacking in doctrinal truth. Again, Charles Spurgeon puts it most precisely:

"I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven."

As a parting note, let me leave you with this one more statement from Mr. Spurgeon. It embodies the spirit of the Calvinist and our love and compassion for all our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe you won't see him as such a bad guy after all.

"There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views."

Peace to you all,

YBIC, hj

Originally posted by Susan
Here is an article by a Calvinist defining "hypercalvinism":
http://www.gty.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
and below is an article by a 4 point Calvinist whom I agree with.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
I'd like your opinions on these.

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Phil has an absolutely incredible site for Calvinism, very very excellent. As far as the second site is concerned, I must disagree. Calvin himself stated that if all 5 points are not followed, then they all fall; the principles are interdependent. It is very simple; you are either a 5 point Calvinist, or not a Calvinist at all, but an Arminian.

Humblejoe, what do you think of evangelism and missions? Some Calvinists have called both pointless and even wrong.

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For a Calvinist to say that evangelism and missions are useless is completely ridiculous, and possibly indicative of hypercalvinistic tendencies. We must evangelize because we are commanded to do so(Matthew 28:19). Furthermore, we simply do not know which of the lost could be a member of the Elect. For these reasons, it is foolish not to preach the gospel to others.

quote: "It is very simple; you are either a 5 point Calvinist, or not a Calvinist at all, but an Arminian."

U see, that's one of the things I cannot understand abt Calvinists. They are so into this labelling business. IOW if you dont follow their doctrines exactly, you are not one of them but belong to the other class of Arminian (whatever that is).

also, the verse I quoted is about causing divisions:

"3* For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

ie loyalty to a person for his charisma or for his teachings.

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "It is very simple; you are either a 5 point Calvinist, or not a Calvinist at all, but an Arminian."

U see, that's one of the things I cannot understand abt Calvinists. They are so into this labelling business. IOW if you dont follow their doctrines exactly, you are not one of them but belong to the other class of Arminian (whatever that is).

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A doctrinal label DOES NOT NEGATE a person's most important identity as Christian. When a Calvinist uses these doctrinal labels, he has already acknowledged the Christian identity. Look at it this way. I'm trying to dissect a dog and a cat to see the physiological similarities and differences, and you are steadily refraining, "But they're both mammals! THEY'RE BOTH MAMMALS!!!".

Doctrine-wise, if you're not a Calvinist, you're an Arminian. Spiritually-wise, I never said you weren't a Christian. In fact, if you'll look at the last Spurgeon quote I gave, it will become quite evident that I am not out to judge other Christians' salvation.

And just how would you describe me doctrinally? I bet that the first thing that comes out of your mouth is "Calvinist". Notice, I said doctrinally.

First and foremost, I am a Christian. Look at my post. Did you read those Charles Spurgeon quotes at all?

also, the verse I quoted is about causing divisions:

"3* For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

ie loyalty to a person for his charisma or for his teachings.

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And as I stated above, people that follow leaders for their charisma, personality, etc.(eg. Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Rod Parsley, etc.) are bound for disappointment, or at least some doctrinal error. In case you didn't catch it the first time, I DO NOT WORSHIP JOHN CALVIN. I serve Jesus Christ, and follow His doctrines, contemporarily referred to as Reformed theology, a system of thought to which Calvin contributed much time and effort in Biblical scholarship.

What do you want me to do? Do you want me to say that I am an idolater and that I live and die for John Calvin? Is that what you want me to do? Do you want me to "cast out Satan" and "repent" of my divisive "antichrist" doctrine? I mean come on, I answered your question in the last post. I'm sorry, I've tried very calmly to provide responses in keeping with Christian brotherhood and fellowship, but I'm growing weary of people trying to elicit an "heretical confession" out of me. It is quickly becoming quite redundant and tiresome.

If you don't want to believe in what I believe in, that's fine. As for me, I am quite solid and convinced in these doctrines. Please, stop running this into the ground.

Yeo relax, dont have to overeact!

no one's trying to "elicit an heretical confession out of you".

it's just that when Calvinists label other Christians as EITHER Calvinist or Arminian, it can get quite offensive too.

Originally posted by Andrew
Yeo relax, dont have to overeact!

no one's trying to "elicit an heretical confession out of you".

it's just that when Calvinists label other Christians as EITHER Calvinist or Arminian, it can get quite offensive too.

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Alright, sorry about that. I got a little out of hand for a sec.
As far as the labeling goes, that's just the way that we categorize for convenience in theological discussion. It's not that we're trying to be divisive or cause problems, it's just the way we organize thoughts. I can understand that some people could take that the wrong way and be offended by it, but it really isn't meant for harm.

all is cool bro

btw, i've posted another thread asking abt limited atonement. the calvinists in a previous forum cldnt give me a satisfactory answer. maybe you can.

(btw: I pretty much agree with most of Calvinism, just dont agree with the Limited Atonement part and that man has no 'free will'.)