pork

icedtea · Jun 10, 2007

I have read pork is forbidden. Can someone explain, as I heard that was just for the Jews back before refridgeration, and the verse which says Its not what goes into a man's stomach which makes him unclean, but what comes out of his heart(making all food kosher)?
Thanks.
(hi wooba)

Dathen · Jun 11, 2007

[bible]Leviticus 11:1-8[/bible]

SWINE=PIG (in a pack)

Pork is pig, so it's unclean!!! Also so is ham, brachetto, and all the pig meats there are. These priciples apply to many more animals than pigs. All animals fit under clean or unclean... Wooba's post below is great and clarifies.

woobadooba · Jun 11, 2007

HowardDean said:
I have read pork is forbidden. Can someone explain, as I heard that was just for the Jews back before refrigeration, and the verse which says Its not what goes into a man's stomach which makes him unclean, but what comes out of his heart(making all food kosher)?
Thanks.
(hi wooba)

Let's take a closer look at what Jesus said. I will underline the points that I want to emphasize:

"Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread. But He answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, "Honor your father and mother"; and, "He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him die by death."

But you say, Whoever says to his father or mother, Whatever you would gain from me, It is a gift to God; and in no way he honors his father or his mother. And you voided the commandment of God by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.

But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." And He called the crowd and said to them, Hear and understand. Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
(Mat 15:1-11)

Here we see Jesus addressing the issue of washing hands before eating. Notice how He
identifies the rule as a "tradition of the elders". Thus He makes it clear that this is not a command that was given by God; rather, it is a rule that was given by men.

And what is the rule? The rule was that if a person did not wash his hands before eating he would thereby defile his food, and thus defile himself by eating it. Hence this was regarded as a sin.

Nevertheless, Jesus made it clear to them that eating food without washing your hands isn't what makes a person sinful, or guilty of committing a sin in the eyes of God. Rather, what comes out of that person's heart determines what he truly is in the sight of God.

The interesting thing about this which people usually don't pick up on is that in Jesus' address to those that were accusing the disciples of sinning because they didn't wash their hands before eating, He declared these people to be guilty of idolatry. For, they took it upon themselves to regard commands of men to be doctrines of God. Hence they sought to usurp the role of God by declaring things to be sinful that God never identified as being sinful.

So their hearts weren't right with God because they were endeavoring to take His place within the hearts of the people that they were declaring to be sinful by not adhering to their man-made traditions. Thus they were the ones that were truly defiled.

Having said that, we can find the list of things that are forbidden to eat in Lev. 11.

Notice how before this list is given it says,
"And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them,"(Lev 11:1)

It is evident that this is a command of God, which was given to Moses to give to God's people. In other words, it wasn't a tradition of men. So to use what Jesus said as a means to declare all foods to be clean is to take what He had said out of context, since that wasn't the issue that He was addressing. He was not addressing the commands of God concerning unclean foods, as if to declare them to be obsolete; instead, He was addressing the traditions that men assumed to be commands of God, when in fact they weren't given by God, but derived from men.

Furthermore, there are many who think that just because the rule of unclean foods was given to the Jews that it doesn't apply to the Christian. This is not true.

In fact, if we take their argument to its final conclusion we would have to submit that everything that was given to the Jews doesn't apply to the Christian. This, of course, would include all commands that were given by God, as well as every promise that He had made to His people. Thus the end result of this would be that we would be excluded from God's plan of salvation, since the promises concerning salvation were initially given to the Jews.

As you can see it just wouldn't make sense to reason like this.

Moreover, whether pork is refrigerated or not, it makes no difference. It is still not good to eat. For, it is extremely high in cholesterol and fat. So that argument doesn't really work either.

Truth is, there is nothing in the NT that indicates that it is now permissible by God to eat such things. Therefore, we must conclude that the rule still applies, even to the Christian.

I hope this helped to clear things up for you

icedtea · Jun 11, 2007

You are always helpful. Are you a teacher?

woobadooba · Jun 11, 2007

HowardDean said:
You are always helpful. Are you a teacher?

Well, I think I have the gift to teach; but I am not officially recognized as a teacher.

It is good to know that what I shared with you was helpful to you

Dathen · Jun 11, 2007

I agree there, you are a great Biblical scholar and explainer woobs .

icedtea · Jun 11, 2007

We'd visited Saturday and gotten a small tract and it mentioned that (which surprised me).
It also mentioned caffeine. Yes? No? There was a dinner afterwards, and there was diet pop. (best. meatloaf. Ever.)

icedtea · Jun 11, 2007

"Food' for thought.

djconklin · Jun 11, 2007

Don't try the Coke on pork makes the worms crawl out claim--there's videos on YouTube that show no worms crawling out. Although it has been suggested that the worms are too small for the naked eye to see.

JonMiller · Jun 11, 2007

I think that unclean meats are less healthy. But then, I also think that meat is less healthy period. But it seems to me that it isn't sinful.

JM

smooze · Jun 11, 2007

I worked for a pork maufacturer and they use freezing to "control" the trecinilla or tiny worms ooh whatever but those things just don't die!!! Soo umm yah nasty creatures they are, if your've ever barbequed pork you'll know the fat content is off the hook also. SO you dont have to be a biblical scholar to know its not right somehow and they put it and use it for all kinds of processed foods .

woobadooba · Jun 11, 2007

HowardDean said:
(best. meatloaf. Ever.)

Yeah, some people are really gifted when it comes to cooking.

Whenever I go to a potluck meal I usually just pile whatever I can on my plate, because it's all good!

TrustAndObey · Jun 11, 2007

Howard Dean, good to see you here.

I don't have a lot of time because I'm studying, but I did want to tell you some things straight out of my textbooks about pork.

Pork is being linked to Alzheimer's and arthritis. In fact, I read an article that claims they've positively linked pork to early onset (childhood) arthritis. I'll see if I can scan that in for you (it's in my book, not online) when I have a little more time, okay?

The worms Jonathan mentioned are not only next to impossible to kill while cooking or refrigerating the meat, they don't die once they enter your body either.

Here's something for my Adventist brothers and sisters...a little FYI in case you don't know....check the labels on EVERYTHING. There's pork in a lot of the brands of marshmallows.

Also, there's pork in most contact lens cleaners.

I didn't know that when I first gave up pork.

Medicine is just catching up to the bible in many ways. God knew eating pork was horrible for us long before science did.

Gotta get back to studying, I just needed a break, and was happy to see you here Howard. I've seen you in GT a few times and you always had good posts.

God bless,
~Lainie

tall73 · Jun 11, 2007

The clean/unclean distinction was given before the covenant with Israel and dates to at least Noah's time (likely since the fall since the clean animals were the ones that the sacrifices came from).

Gen 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate,
Gen 7:3 and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

Additionally, the command against eating blood was mentioned also in the flood account, and re-iterated even in apostolic times:

Gen 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

By these standards much of the meat sold today in both supermarkets and restaurants would be a problem.

The distinction between clean and unclean pre-dates the consumption of animals, as the distinction was present before the flood but it was not until after the flood that God allowed for animals to be eaten.

Gen 9:2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

thecountrydoc · Jun 11, 2007

I'm with Lainie. I simply don't have time to give you all the clinical reasons pork and pork prodcts are amoung the very worst "food" products available today.

When you combine the bad effects on health with the fact that pork is very near the top of the list for most readly available meat products, it is clearly the most dangerous meat product on the market today.

Another interesting fact is that in the south and the southeast, where pork has the highest consumption rate in the U.S., they also have the highest rate of heart disease, hypertension, stroke, stomach cancer, colon cancer, high colorestrol, obesity and several other well known health problems of any geographic area in the U.S.

I'll try to come back later, when I have more time, and give you some more clinical facts.

Respectfuly, your brother in Christ,
Doc

maco · Jun 11, 2007

I watched this medical show the other night and it showed this teenager who was having seizures. They did a catscan and saw this little thing in his brain they thought was cancer but he didn't have any of the symtoms of cancer in the blood tests. They couldn't figure out what was going on with this kid and he was getting worst. The doctors could see that if they didn't find the problem he was going to die.

They did test after test until this one doctor remembered something in medical school about eating pork and how eating pork can cause these worms to enter you and start living off your blood.

They started testing for these worms when they began to see that this kid did and fact have all the symtoms of having these worms but the problem was he was Jewish and never ate pork.

He swore up and down that he didn't eat any pork but the doctors treated him for the worms anyway. He quickly starting showing improvment. The doctors found that the thing in the boys head was in fact a worm from pork. Not only did he have it in his head he also had them in other parts of his body. They did more studies with other family members and found that many of his family and relatives also had worms from pork yet they all denied eating any pork.

The doctors were finally able to find out what happened. These families had hired help from Central America. The hired help did all the cooking and cleaning in their homes. These poeple were also tested and found to be the carriers of these worms which they themselves got from eating pork. How they spread the worms to the others was through their feces.

Apparently these workers had these parasites in them from eating pork and when they went to the bathroom they didn't wash their hands which passed these parasites on the food they were preparing for the Jewish families. It was very interesting but gross.

icedtea · Jun 11, 2007

I already knew pork wasn't that healthful, what I was inquiring about was Is it a sin then? A hardfast rule?

maco · Jun 11, 2007

HowardDean said:
I already knew pork wasn't that healthful, what I was inquiring about was Is it a sin then? A hardfast rule?

God has commanded His people to keep themselves from certain things such as pork, also known as, swine's flesh.

There is one verse that tells me God still commands His people to obstain from pork and it's found in Isaiah. This verse is speaking about the last day when the Lord returns to destroy the wicked. Listen to what it says about those who eat swine's flesh.

Isaiah 66:15-17 For behold, the Lord will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the Lord will judge all flesh; and the slain of the Lord shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, to go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together,'' says the Lord.

It's hard to get around this verse because it's speaking of the endtime judgment.

woobadooba · Jun 11, 2007

maco said:
God has commanded His people to keep themselves from certain things such as pork, also known as, swine's flesh.

There is one verse that tells me God still commands His people to obstain from pork and it's found in Isaiah. This verse is speaking about the last day when the Lord returns to destroy the wicked. Listen to what it says about those who eat swine's flesh.

Isaiah 66:15-17 For behold, the Lord will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the Lord will judge all flesh; and the slain of the Lord shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, to go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together,'' says the Lord.

It's hard to get around this verse because it's speaking of the endtime judgment.

A few questions for thought...

Was Isaiah speaking of a certain kind of people relative to his day, or just anyone in general that would eat such things?

In other words, what were the characteristics of the people that ate these things during his time, and does anyone that eats these things fall into the same category as they did simply because they eat them?

You see, he could have been speaking of a certain type of people relative to his time that were altogether ungodly, as if to assert that such a character would exist until the end of time. Thus the people that fostered such a character during his time were known to eat these things. If this is the case, it wouldn't be difficult to conclude that the people to which he was referring here would just simply be people that are altogether ungodly. So it's not an issue of what food they eat, but one of what type of character they have, which brings them under God's condemnation.

Note: I do believe God doesn't want us to eat these things. But I don't believe that just because a person eats these things that that person is automatically excluded from God's kingdom. I'm sure we can find people that eat pork and have a genuine love for God at the same time. We are not judged by what we eat, but by how we respond to God.

Ptilinopus · Jun 11, 2007

I get disturbed by questions that ask, "Is this or that a sin?". There are several Biblical definitions of sin, and we shouldn't need to pick and choose between them. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (other translations - "Sin is lawlessness") - 1 John 3:4. "Whatever is not of faith is sin" (Rom.14:23). "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, not him it is sin." (James 4:17).

The issue is not then if this or that is a sin. Many things are not good for us, and God desires our best good, our best health, and has made it plain - from the laws of health He gave Israel through Moses, to the principles of health he elaborated through Ellen White...

The issue is rather whether we are prepared to go along with God's expressed will for us - to do ourselves the good he desires for us. Is it compatible to say "I love and follow God, and therefore I am free to ignore the counsel He gave me about my health."? It is not pork, as such, that is a "sin" - but our attitude to what He has told us, and His concern for our wellbeing.

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