Polygenist Creation Models

Research2 said:

God is spirit (Genesis 1: 2; 1 Samuel 11: 6; John 4: 24) however Genesis 3: 8 states God was walking (literally like a man) through the Garden of Eden, so evidently in physical form He resembles an Adamite, hence Adam was made in the image and likeness of God Himself (Genesis 1: 27).

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So God is a Caucasian. The thread gets richer and richer.

Research2 said:

- Where is the evidence Christianity is a universal religion?
- Where are the eskimos, polynesians, japanese etc in scripture?
- Why are the Libyans fair skinned, despite the fact living in a hot environment for thousands of years?

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- Universal religion (i.e. Christianity is available to all races) was answered here. Jesus' quote on 'all nations' refers to all nations, not just the ones they knew of i.e. the House of Israel. You yourself said the Greeks and Romans had the term terra incognita - ''unknown lands''.
- Mention of Inuits, Aboriginals, Americans in the Bible answered here. These people are not mentioned because the people living in the Middle East at the time did not know they existed. But the Bible is the word of God, creator of all that exists.
- Explanation of Libyan (specifically Berber) skin colour here (bottom of comment). They are descended from Caucasians who lived in Europe for a far greater time than they lived in norther Africa. They are also darker than other Caucasians.

Yes, I was making a personal comment at you. I know it's not nice (it's been done to me) but I feel your ideals on race is a serious misrepresentation of Christianity which is based on personal opinion, not evidence. By the way when I said even other white supremacists would disagree with you was this a surprise or not?

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In fairness you too have avoided answering most of the questions I listed earlier.

- If the races are unrelated (just as, according to creationists, humans and chimps are unrelated) how does polygenism explain our ability to interbreed? Why can people of different races have a child but a human and an ape cannot?

- If Caucasians are the only people who can achieve salvation, what happens to anyone less than 'pure' white? Does someone who is 75% caucasian have a 75% chance of entering heaven? Does a mulatto only have a 50% chance?

- You have added a reason (albeit a very bizarre one) on the purpose of racial features in Caucasians. God is a white man and man is made in his image. What about other races? Why did he give Mongolics hooded eyelids? Why did he give Negros dark skin? Even creationists know traits usually have a purpose.

- Your comment on God being Caucasian also raises more questions: does God have blond hair and blue eyes? Is so what about the vast majority of caucasians who have brown hairs and eyes? Are they not made in the image of God?

Shernren said:

But Research2's point is correct albeit in a twisted way. Today there are at least 20 haplogroups with genetically-distinct Y chromosomal lineages. These groups all had to diverge from a single Y chromosome (unless Noah's wife was unfaithful

) within the span of about two thousand years.

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I suck at detecting sarcasm ... :o

Are you talking about the Y-Chromosome Adam? I've heard of him, he apparently dates to about 6000 to 9000 years ago rather than 2000. But still, it's unlikely he was the Adam.

shernren said:

Can I ask you for an example of a phrase or description which you would accept as being unambiguously referring to a place outside southwest Europe? Otherwise, I think it would be fair for us to say that your views are not falsifiable, with all the usual entailments.

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Find me the eskimos, polynesians, australian aborigines, sub-saharan africans in scripture, then i will admit i am wrong. But as i said, good luck with finding these passages on the eskimos etc.

Research2 said:

Find me the eskimos, polynesians, australian aborigines, sub-saharan africans in scripture, then i will admit i am wrong. But as i said, good luck with finding these passages on the eskimos etc.

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You really don't read anyone's posts ...

- Read Genesis 1: 26; 27. Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, therefore what Adam looked like is the image of God.

- Universal religion (i.e. Christianity is available to all races) was answered here. Jesus' quote on 'all nations' refers to all nations, not just the ones they knew of i.e. the House of Israel. You yourself said the Greeks and Romans had the term terra incognita - ''unknown lands''.

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Can you not read? Jesus only sent his apostles to the House of Israel.

I've repeated this about 10 times now, and i can only presume you are now trolling me. The rest of your post is going around in cycles, and now you have resorted to attacking me and smearing/falsely labeling my views - which might i add is not Christian like.

I'm going to have to put to you now on ignore. You had your chance to debate fairly, but you have resorted to trolling and insults. Whatever i type, you will claim the opposite - just for a reaction, or to frustrate me i guess. But i'm not wasting anymore of my time feeding you.

This thread will be left up, as i will add more sources here over time.

Research2 said:

Can you not read? Jesus only sent his apostles to the House of Israel.

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And I in turn have pointed out why this interpretation is incorrect. You could repeat yourself 1000 times and you will still be incorrect.

Research2 said:

I've repeated this about 10 times now, and i can only presume you are now trolling me. The rest of your post is going around in cycles, and now you have resorted to attacking me and smearing/falsely labeling my views - which might i add is not Christian like.

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Someone who claims Caucasians are the 'sons of God' - just as Jesus was - accusing me of being un-christian ...

Research2 said:

I'm going to have to put to you now on ignore. You had your chance to debate fairly, but you have resorted to trolling and insults. Whatever i type, you will claim the opposite - just for a reaction, or to frustrate me i guess. But i'm not wasting anymore of my time feeding you.

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For the record I am going to continue posting on this thread, not so you can read my posts but to show anyone else who reads it can see why your arguments are wrong, both factually and morally.

I also find it difficult to feel ashamed about being put on the ignore list of a white supremacist because he finds my questions and answers too difficult to fathom.

Research1 said:

Thread to talk about polygenist creationism.

I'm going to add stuff here over time.

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There is not such thing as polygenist creationism, it's a contradiction in terms.

mark kennedy said:

There is not such thing as polygenist creationism, it's a contradiction in terms.

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Why?

Mainstream monogenist creationists have no problem with accepting that God created all the different animals independantly, so why not the different races?

Research2 said:

Why?

Mainstream monogenist creationists have no problem with accepting that God created all the different animals independantly, so why not the different races?

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First of all because there is no such thing as race. Secondly we are all descendants of Adam. Most importantly, the doctrine of original sin is unavoidable and polygenesis is in direct contradiction of this vital doctrine of the faith.

Don't get me wrong, I've known a number of Christians who buy into this while having no hesitation admitting that they are in fact sinners. My problem is that the whole premise of Scripture, particularly the New Testament exposition of the Genesis account indicate a mongenist view in no uncertain terms.

I have introduced a thread in the common forum on the subject of original sin. You might get a better idea of where I''m coming from there.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Research2 said:

Why?

Mainstream monogenist creationists have no problem with accepting that God created all the different animals independantly, so why not the different races?

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Both the polygenist and monogenist model may be in complete agreement. Even explaining race fixation.

Notedstrangeperson said:

I suck at detecting sarcasm ... :o

Are you talking about the Y-Chromosome Adam? I've heard of him, he apparently dates to about 6000 to 9000 years ago rather than 2000. But still, it's unlikely he was the Adam.

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Good heavens no! Y-Chromosome Adam is just an evil evilutionist invention using evil evilutionist genetic science.

Plus these evil evilutionists don't know their Bibles very well. Remember that while the entire human race is descended from Adam, the Flood wiped out everyone but Noah's family. Since Noah's sons could only have inherited their Y-chromosomes from Noah (unless Noah's wife was, hmm, less righteous), every male's Y-chromosomes can be traced back to Noah, making it Y-Chromosome Noah not Y-Chromosome Adam.

Research2 said:

Find me the eskimos, polynesians, australian aborigines, sub-saharan africans in scripture, then i will admit i am wrong. But as i said, good luck with finding these passages on the eskimos etc.

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Note that I asked you for a geographical description, and you responded with a list of races. I hope this makes it very clear to all that you have a very deeply ingrained predisposition towards viewing issues through racial lenses.

But fine, I'll work with what I have. What, if you did find one in the Bible, would be a convincing, unambiguous description of a non-Caucasian race or person? What features would you expect to be listed in such a description?

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Mind you, I'm not really interested in proving Research2 wrong. As far as I'm concerned he has simply shut himself off from the possibility of even contemplating any data which might disprove his position - a Morton's Demon which forces him to see the whole world in black and white, and then filter out all the black. Why should I bother?

What I am trying to do here is to give creationists a live demonstration of Morton's Demon in action. Morton's Demon tends to build unfalsifiable strongholds, and he does so by goalpost-shifting (seen), Gish-galloping (seen), and being incapable of prior determination of specific evidence that would destroy the worldview (coming to a thread near you soon). Since the rest of you here aren't white supremacists (I would hope!), you can identify firsthand how Research2's tactics are fallacious.

And then when evolutionists accuse you of not listening to them, you will actually be able to understand how they feel.

Research2 is also a very valuable example of how little creationists actually defend the faith. Of course, when a nasty little evilutionist like me comes along, the creationists duly line up and defend the infallibility of the Bible. Fair enough - I expect no less.

But what if a creationist starts denying the omniscience of God or the Trinity or the deity of Christ, or uses a scientific model in which the universe has neither beginning nor end, or claims that half the world is genetically disqualified from being a Christian?

The great bazookas of faith arrayed against the evolutionists suddenly go quiet. The stalwart defenders let the most vile heresies be countered ... by the ones they constantly malign.

Here is an example of someone who believes something profoundly unorthodox, and believes that he believes so based purely on an accurate understanding of the Bible.

Go on, mark. You flay us evolutionists for rejecting original sin. Surely you won't pass up on someone who believes that a billion humans simply can never know God at all, right?

Greg1234 said:

Both the polygenist and monogenist model may be in complete agreement. Even explaining race fixation.

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If you believe in monogenism you have to be an evolutionist, even so called 'Young Earth Creationists' like Ken Kam embrace macro-evolution when it comes to the origin of the different races. Ham believes that the races suddenly morphed or evolved within a hundred years after the Tower of Babel...

Research2 said:

If you believe in monogenism you have to be an evolutionist, even so called 'Young Earth Creationists' like Ken Kam embrace macro-evolution when it comes to the origin of the different races. Ham believes that the races suddenly morphed or evolved within a hundred years after the Tower of Babel...

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But the two, both the polygenist and monogenist model, may be compatible (without races evolving).

I think Mark Kennedy brought up a very good point about original sin - since only Caucasians inherited Adam's sin, what about all the evil non-white people?
Animals cannot sin. A lion who kills a cubs, female spiders who eat their mates, birds who swallow chicks alive, it's all very unpleasant but it's not evil. They're just animals, they do what they do.
If non-whites are not 'people' (not in the same way Caucasians are people) does this mean Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot and chairman Mao weren't actually evil men?

greg1234 said:

But the two, both the polygenist and monogenist model, may be compatible (without races evolving).

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The monogenist model is that all the races are descended from Adam, which is a position most people take, evolutionist or creationist. The polygenist model argues that the races were created separately - in this case Research2 argues that the races are descended from earlier ape-like beings while caucasians were created ex-nihilo by God. Caucasians are created in God's image because God himself is a caucasian.

Research2 said:

God is spirit (Genesis 1: 2; 1 Samuel 11: 6; John 4: 24) however Genesis 3: 8 states God was walking (literally like a man) through the Garden of Eden, so evidently in physical form He resembles an Adamite, hence Adam was made in the image and likeness of God Himself (Genesis 1: 27).

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Everyone please ignore Notedstrangeperson's lies and smears and thread derail attempts. No where in this thread have i called other races ''evil'', nor has any white supremacist or related material been posted. In fact it is only ever Notedstrangeperson who brings racism or white supremacy into virtually every post.

This thread was merely to discuss polygenist creation models, nothing to do with racism. Ignore the trolling or thread derail attempts.

Notedstrangeperson said:

The monogenist model is that all the races are descended from Adam, which is a position most people take, evolutionist or creationist. The polygenist model argues that the races were created separately

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They may not be different while maintaining both views.

Greg1234 said:

But the two, both the polygenist and monogenist model, may be compatible (without races evolving).

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That is false, since if you believe in monogenism you have to believe in evolution to explain the features. If you think not, explain how all the races came about if they all came from Adam?

Research2 said:

Everyone please ignore Notedstrangeperson's lies and smears and thread derail attempts. No where in this thread have i called other races ''evil'', nor has any white supremacist or related material been posted. In fact it is only ever Notedstrangeperson who brings racism or white supremacy into virtually every post.

This thread was merely to discuss polygenist creation models, nothing to do with racism. Ignore the trolling or thread derail attempts.

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I thought you put me on your ignore list?
Besides, you've added controversial comments to various threads, including this one. I wasn't saying you claimed non-whites were evil, I was saying that if only Caucasians are descended from Adam, does this mean non-whites are free from sin?

- Your posts are ignored, however i knew you would come back to this thread to spread lies, smears etc so i viewed them and have exposed them for what they are.

- Also my threads/posts are not controversial to most. Most Christian posters here are fairly moderate and normal on their views and have debated me on these topics without insulting, labeling or smearing my views, the only problems i've had is with two posters with political agendas - you, and secondly another user who is a homosexual quaker who stalks me across these boards as well as anyone else who isn't a far left pro-homosexual liberal.

Research2 said:

Also my threads/posts are not controversial to most.

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You've made quite a few, indeed all your comments seem to be about race, regardless of topic. Most of the users here reply politely but they disagree or try to ignore you. I'm not sure why you're annoyed with Kiwimac.

I've tried to answer most of your questions but you appear to be ignoring them, as well as the comments from other users. This makes it hard to debate you.

- The thread is about polygenism, hence its concerned with the origin of the different races.

However instead of debating this topic, this thread has attracted liberals and other cranks with PC agendas, hence all the posts in this thread claiming races don't exist, or that physical antrhopology is invalid. Secondly its also attracted others like you, who can't go 5 minutes without labelling someone with the 'r' word (as all liberals do).

Anyway here's a scientific paper on why physical anthropology is valid in regards to race, and that races exist -

Gill, George W. Does Race Exist? A Proponent's Perspective. University of Wyoming, 2000

some quotes:

''forensic anthropologists attain a high degree of accuracy in determining geographic racial affinities (white, black, American Indian, etc.) by utilizing both new and traditional methods of bone analysis. Many well-conducted studies were reported in the late 1980s and 1990s that test methods objectively for percentage of correct placement. Numerous individual methods involving midfacial measurements, femur traits, and so on are over 80 percent accurate alone, and in combination produce very high levels of accuracy. No forensic anthropologist would make a racial assessment based upon just one of these methods, but in combination they can make very reliable assessments, just as in determining sex or age. In other words, multiple criteria are the key to success in all of these determinations.''

''If we choose to accept the system of racial taxonomy that physical anthropologists have traditionally established—major races: black, white, etc.—then one can classify human skeletons within it just as well as one can living humans. The bony traits of the nose, mouth, femur, and cranium are just as revealing to a good osteologist as skin color, hair form, nose form, and lips to the perceptive observer of living humanity.''

Note this last quote -

''Why this bias from the 'race denial' faction? This bias seems to stem largely from socio-political motivation and not science at all.''

Keep the politics away from science, please.