Poll: Rape and Abortion - The Catholic Viewpoint

Originally posted by s0uljah


Wonderful...put the crime on the Church, not the person that raped the nine year old girl. Amazing.

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Actually I would see it as a crime of the church if the church didn't consider the pros and cons and realize this is potential abuse. I don't think the bible addresses such an abomination, but the position should be that the church supports the medical and families decision. Which in my case would be abortion, no if's and's or but's.

And may Gods mercy go with.

Some of you seem to think that those of us who would not get an abortion for a 9 year old do not really care about the child.  This is very far from the truth.  At least in my case, and I'm sure in the case of all who have answered this way.

Scenario...A 9 year old girl who has been brought up in a home that teaches God's commandments.  Where abortion is abhorred as a terrible sin...murder of an unborn baby.  This child agrees with these views.  Maybe this child has even attended a "March For Life" or, at the very least has prayed in church for an end to abortion.

Now.  This poor child has been raped.  She has been hurt and traumatized beyond belief.  The family is all helping her, supporting her, loving her.  Then, horror of horrors, they find out she is pregnant as a result of the rape.  What to do?  Abortion flickers through the minds of the parents.  But it's wrong.  But she's our child!  They approach the child to discuss this.  The child is horrified!  "You taught me, the Church taught me, that abortion is murder.  I'd be killing a tiny little baby."  But the parents fear for her life and state of mind and talk her into this. "But this time it will be ok.  Under the circumstances God will understand.  You are just too young, too small to carry a baby.  You could both die."

First ending to the above scenario:  It is now six years later.  The girl is 15.  She and her boyfriend are in love.  One night on a date they "go too far".  But it's ok.  "Under the circumstances God will understand.  It isn't really a sin because we're in love".  Oooops!  Girl gets pregnant.  But guess what?  Under the circumstances it's ok to get an abortion.  After all I had one when I was younger...it's no big deal.  And I'm way too young.  I haven't even graduated high school yet, let alone gone to college.

Second ending to the above scenario:  It is now six years later.  The girl is 15.  She goes to school and comes home.  That's it.  She never attends any teen functions.  She has very few friends and none are close.  She spends her time mourning the baby that was killed when she had an abortion so many years ago.  She just can't forget that little soul.  She just cannot get over the guilt she feels every time she sees a baby.  She cries alot.  She has self-destructive thoughts. 

Third ending to the above scenario:  It is now six years later.  The parents are visiting the grave of their little girl who died while having a legal abortion when she was only 9 years old.  They miss her very much. 

See, no one has considered the fact that women do die during legal abortions, as well as carrying a baby.  And if the child's body cannot handle the pregnancy, she may very well have a miscarriage. 

I don't like to "get into" these debates, but I just have to say that we are given our children to be raised up for God.  Even more important than our duty to keep the physical body of that child safe, is to teach the child to keep his or her soul safe.  A 9 year old can understand.  For a parent to say it's ok to commit what is considered a sin because of certain circumstances, no matter how horrendous those circumstances, is for the parent to open a door that may never again close.

There are many more than my 3 endings to that scenario.  I just feel that I would have to do what is best for my child's soul.  I would have to stand firm, no matter how much it hurt to see this child go through this.  Christianity is hard.  No one ever said the decisions we have to make would be easy. 

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


I invite everyone to look at ZooMom's Profile to see the typical body frame/size of a 10 year old child. Now imagine how much she has grown since she was 9 years old.

To say that some of you have lost your marbles would be a kindness. A child cannot give birth to a child. You are living in a fantasy world.

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Psalm 139

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. 
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well. 
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 
your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

The Bible is clear that if conception takes place, it is God's will.  We cannot become God ourselves and decide to take that life to spare another.

Are you all forgetting about Abraham?  I am sure it was terribly difficult for him to bring his son to the altar and be fully prepared to kill him, but he did it out of obedience to God.   It's called Faith.

I pray that my family is never put in such a horrendous situation, but it has been my strong convi tion since the day this thread was first started to remain steadfast in His will and also in prayer for my family's safety and well-being and for the safety of all children.

I pray that God would give me the faith of Abraham if, Heaven forbid, I ever had to make such a horrible decision.

Michelle

I think one point that may be missed in this scenario...

Assuming your Catholic beliefs are consistent with Church Teachings...

Life is Created by God. The 9 year old girl contains within her a life created by God. Catholics believe this. God doesn't make mistakes in this respect.

How does one justify taking that life which God created?

A few of the posts deal with the slipery slope issue. Once you make an exception to anything, on any moral issue, you truly open up a can of worms with respect to ..."Where do we draw the line" between what's okay and not okay.

Some things are just wrong. In all cases. I there are exceptions to the "wrongness" of someting, than it becomes subjective. The Church doesn't teach subjectivity on these matters.

I'm not passing judgement on anyone's opinions on this matter. I'm really trying to understand how practicing catholics deviate from Church Teaching. Personally the abortion issue is an easy one for me, other issues are not so easy. Understanding the thought process for disreagarding a church teaching is the point and how does one reconcile it.

If your child was raped and pregnant, would you get her an abortion?

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Obviously, having not been in the situation, I couldn't give an "in stone" answer on this one. My initial feelings are that I would not concent to my child having an abortion. As far as the risks of giving birth at such a young age, well, I think that I would rather tackle those instead of tackling the risk of losing my daughter to things like hemoraging after an abortion. For as much as anyone wants to say that it is "safe", I don't think that it is anymore safe than a young girl having her baby.

Would it be hard on her? You bet it would. As her mother though, I would do the absolute best that I could to make sure that she was healthy and happy. If it came about that she learned to love her child, I would even raise that child for her until she was able and capable of taking care of the baby on her own. Or I would be there to hold her and wipe away her tears when they would come to take her baby for adoption. I'm sure that it would be traumatic, but God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle, especially not if her father and I are right beside her, pulling for her.

Also, as far as premature births go, it's all in God's hands. I've had two children born early, one at 4 months and the other at 3. It is devistating when the worst happens, and so uplifting when you are blessed with the best, but it still all comes down to what God gives you. I've lost a child, and no, I would never wish that on my daughter. I couldn't see killing that child though, to try and save her from the heartache of it. We all will be hurt in this life, it is just up to us to use that experience to learn and grow from.


God bless,

Jenna

I've received a complaint regarding this thread as being a battleground.  At times, it seems so.  I'm not sure the thread should be closed just yet but it's heading that way as it seems it is becoming unproductive. 

Please, if you disagree with someone's viewpoint, do so in a Christian manner.  Let us remember Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors. 

If I receive another complaint, I will close the thread--I don't want to.  So, please debate, just do so as Christians. 

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

Originally posted by nyj


 

So Auntie condones abortion in this case.  So let me say:

 

Not only is it sad, it is evil beyond comprehension, completely lacking love, compassion and mercy for a defenseless and innocent unborn child.

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nyj,

You have also given your stamp of approval on abortion, in addition to risking the life of the little girl.

If you terminate the pregnancy at 4 months, that is abortion whether you will admit it or not. To abort a pregnancy at 4 months is abortion, no matter how much you protest the fact and alter the truth of it.

And if you terminate the prenancy at 4 months, and the infant doesn't survive and dies, then you are guilty of murder and you will be excommunicated.

And if you terminate the pregnancy at 4 months, and the infant and the 9 year old child both die, then you are guilty of 2 murders and you will be excommunicated.

I'm sorry but I'm closing this thread. The last post just begs for an angry reply. The thread is being unproductive and going nowhere and no one is going to change their minds. I think it's for the best. Again, I'm sorry.

Okay, I'm re-opening this thread.  However, there will be no "tone it down" general warnings posted.  If someone gets ugly, they'll get a regular warning, Catholic or non-Catholic, it doesn't matter.  I won't tolerate attacks on each other. 

Like I posted before, we are Christians.  Let's act like Christians in our posts.   Now please, have a good debate!

I don't believe that rape is grounds for abortion. I was raped, and I thought I was pregnant. I thought I was pregnant for a good few weeks, and I never would have considered having an abortion.

God bless you, Amber.

But I'm almost certain that the issue in this 'scenario' is not primarily the rape aspect, but the age of the girl who has been raped. People who otherwise would not condone abortion are finding that their emotions are clouding their convictions. I had the same problem myself a few years ago. I was against abortion, except for cases of child rape and incest. I would freely acknowledge that life began at conception, and that fetuses were not mere blobs but living babies. Except in cases of child rape and incest. Great logic, isn't it? I truly wrestled with angels over it. I cried and prayed and raged and protested to God that it simply was 'unfair' to 'force' a young girl, a child, to carry and give birth to a.....a what? That was the crux. No matter how I shut my eyes and ears and heart to it. A baby. A helpless, innocent baby. A baby that was not in any way responsible for it's conception, but was being forced to pay with it's life for it. My 'rationalizations' were only my *own* grief and rage and horror and vengeance crying out against one injustice while condoning a much greater one. And parents that say that they would take their child for an abortion under those circumstances are making the same mistake I did. They are shutting their minds and hearts to the miracle that the horror produced. That baby is not just a part of the assailant, but a part of their own child and by extension a part of themselves. Their grandchild...however it was conceived. But it is hard, Lord yes, to get past that rage and grief and that parent instinct to 'make it all better'. I pray for them. I hurt for them. And I hope that God sends them an angel to wrestle with.

Weird. How did this get bumped up?

I agree that these are horrible circumstance.  But I will always say NO to abortion.  It is wrong I can live with the fact I made someone get an abortion.  I think it is wrong in every way.

Originally posted by IdahoAmber
I don't believe that rape is grounds for abortion. I was raped, and I thought I was pregnant. I thought I was pregnant for a good few weeks, and I never would have considered having an abortion.

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wow, I am sorry to hear about this amber, but I am very happy to hear about your trust in the Lord!
Scripture shows us time and time again that God does take bad situations and uses them to His advantage.
In your case it could have been the creation of a new life, which is *always* a good thing.

These types of questions really bring out the actual reality of the Body of Christ. As people, we are all members of the body of Christ. The sins of one, are indellibly linked to the rest of the body.
However, as Christians we must never loose sight of the fact that each and every conception is an active decision God has made to bring another life into this world. For every person who concieves a child in such terrible circumstances, there are families who have perfect circumstances but God chooses not to place a child in the womb of that would be mother. As it says in the book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) "who knows the mind of God? who has been his counselor?". God's ways are mysterious and often incomprehensible to us. However, when God has made a decision (ie. to place the life in the womb) no matter the external circumstances we may perceive, we commit grave sin when we presume to know more than God and act contrary to his decisions. In our society, it' called the "right" to choose. I've even heard some assert that God supports a Woman's right to choose. Well, it's not a right, it's an ability. I am 6'1" tall and weigh about 230lbs. I drive an F150. When someone cuts me off in traffic, I have the "ability" to run them off the road, drag them out of their car, and proceed to beat them about the head and shoulders! However, this is not a "right". Legally, a right must be "fair and equitable". there is nothing fair and equitable about snuffing a life out of a womb. In ANY circumstance.

Originally posted by A_B_liever
These types of questions really bring out the actual reality of the Body of Christ. As people, we are all members of the body of Christ. The sins of one, are indellibly linked to the rest of the body.
However, as Christians we must never loose sight of the fact that each and every conception is an active decision God has made to bring another life into this world. For every person who concieves a child in such terrible circumstances, there are families who have perfect circumstances but God chooses not to place a child in the womb of that would be mother. As it says in the book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) "who knows the mind of God? who has been his counselor?". God's ways are mysterious and often incomprehensible to us. However, when God has made a decision (ie. to place the life in the womb) no matter the external circumstances we may perceive, we commit grave sin when we presume to know more than God and act contrary to his decisions. In our society, it' called the "right" to choose. I've even heard some assert that God supports a Woman's right to choose. Well, it's not a right, it's an ability. I am 6'1" tall and weigh about 230lbs. I drive an F150. When someone cuts me off in traffic, I have the "ability" to run them off the road, drag them out of their car, and proceed to beat them about the head and shoulders! However, this is not a "right". Legally, a right must be "fair and equitable". there is nothing fair and equitable about snuffing a life out of a womb. In ANY circumstance.

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Good stuff believer, very inspirational