Poll about evolutionary science

Chris H · Sep 16, 2002

Actually, with all due respect I think Rufus is at least partially right. Science does not have the necessary tools to make any judegement about God-pro or Contra. That doesn't mean that good Christian men and women don't practice Science. It is merely a statement that the supernatural is beyond the scope of actual testable science.

Chris

Chris H · Sep 16, 2002

Besides, lots of perfectly good theologians haven't really acknoledged science. David wasn't exactly of a modern scientific mind when he wrote the psalms either.

This isn't to say that the two are completely seperate-Science raises ethical issues that religion and Christianity can deal with while religion often makes truth claims that science can investigate.

With the love of Christ,

Chris

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 16, 2002

Originally posted by Chris H
Besides, lots of perfectly good theologians haven't really acknoledged science. David wasn't exactly of a modern scientific mind when he wrote the psalms either.

This isn't to say that the two are completely seperate-Science raises ethical issues that religion and Christianity can deal with while religion often makes truth claims that science can investigate.

With the love of Christ,

Chris

Sometimes science can point to a question that theology is required to answer. For example, why is the Universe rational? Why can we understand the complex mathematics required to describe the Universe?

Late_Cretaceous · Sep 16, 2002

I don't think Franklin is a troll, I think he is sincere in his beleifs. Franklin strikes me as one who is caught up in the supposed implicaitons of evolutionary theory, but does not really understand the theory - therefore does not really understand the implications. Franklin, like many people (IMO) has not listened to a reational discourse about evolution, but rather has been influenced by a irrational lampoon of the theory.

eldermike · Sep 17, 2002

Actually, with all due respect I think Rufus is at least partially right. Science does not have the necessary tools to make any judegement about God-pro or Contra. That doesn't mean that good Christian men and women don't practice Science. It is merely a statement that the supernatural is beyond the scope of actual testable science.

I wasn't trying to be harsh. I understand His position but I did expect to be misunderstood. The void between Christianity and science was created by Christians. The history of science and it's relationship with Christianity is a trap that catches and holds us on one side or the other. I admire those that refused to be caught in the trap on either side of the issue.

Blessings

FordPrefect · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Did you know where your towel was at the time?

On a more serious note, quantum physics actually reopened the door for God to act in the world. Newtonian determinism had many people convinced that God created the world then left it to run on its own. Because quantum mechanics are probable rather than definite, God could act without breaking the laws of physics or even always being noticed. The same happened for free will

Yep, I am a frood who really knows where his towel is

While I can see your point regarding QP being a side-door for god to ignore physics, but only at a very small level though. What I found when I read a few books on the subject (all by John Gribbon) was the utter chaos that exists at the Q level. I.e. when a travelling photon can borrow energy from the universe, split into a myriad of particles and their anti-particles and suddenly pop back into a photon. This chaos caused me to start questioning the "perfect" order of the universe and that was how I got started on my current path. But I always keep my towel nearby.

 

RufusAtticus · Sep 17, 2002

eldermike,

Maybe I did misunderstand you. I saw you as saying that science must conform to "our" understanding of God. Were you instead saying that "our" understanding of God must conform to science?

The former is bad science and opressive theology.
The latter is good sceince and progressive theology.

franklin · Sep 17, 2002

  Originally posted by Chris H
Franklin, as a committed evangelical Christian I admire your enthusiasm. I'd be glad to go to church with you and kneel at the alter and pray any time. Wouldn't mind sitting in a bible study and going over God's word in depth either.

Chris, I'd be glad to search the scriptures with you and pray with you and we won't have to do it in a church building either. Since we will most likely never meet in person, I shall keep you in my prayers as you have indicated you are a fellow brethren of the faith.

As a fan of science I deplore your lack of knowledge.

This is a very presumpsous statement to make on your part brother and I could just as well say about you that I deplore your extreme lack of discernment if you believe in such a false theory as evolution especially since you said your a believer! And why should I go to a library and study a bunch of books that are written by men who support this atheistic teaching in the first place?  Its roots are in atheism!  Are you that deceived that you can't see that brother!  This is all the more reason for me to keep YOU in my prayers! 

This is not meant as a personal attack but a word of encouragement.

Click to expand...

I just love it when someone makes a statement like this!  First they attack you, then they turn around and say, this isn't a personal attack!  I can handle it though, I've been there, done that!  I'll give you this one!  next question......

If you have legitimate criticism of the theory or questions, post them here. I love a good debate or discussion on this issue.

Click to expand...

I guess you missed my post #33 ?  I posted legit quesitons brother!  Go there and read!  better yet, I'll repost! What is life? Is it just having the right combinations of proteins in just the right order? Is a man nothing more than a collection of substances and chemicals that happened to somehow `become alive`?  Did the human race just come about by accident or the big bang?  If you believe in the God of the same bible you and I read, how can you say you believe in such a false theory?  Are you that gullible?  Oh and, that is not a personal attack BTW......  

Hundreds of thousands of trained scientists around the world, including Christian scientists, use evolution every day. It is perhaps one of the most widely documented and best developed of all scientific theories. Do you really think your going to demolish it with a few quotes that don't accurately refect evolutionary science.

Click to expand...

Hundreds of thousands of trained scientists around the world are writing evolution off as a major failure also!  Most of them especially the dicerning one's have come to realize they were deceived by this big lie called evolution along with the false documented so called scientific theories.  I don't have to try to demolish it either, evolution is doing a good job of destroying itself quite well on it's own, especially since it doesn't have a leg to stand on. The first and second law of Thermodynamics proves that it has hit a brick wall everytime. Which brings me to a question I'd like to ask you Chris, as a brother in Christ, What is it about this doctrine of evolution that inspires you and other believers to have so much faith and zeal in it to the point of defending it?  That has always boggled my mind!  It amazes me to no end as to why so many Christians are so zealous in defending false doctrines and theories that is nowhere in the scriptures.  Can you answer that question?

With Christian love as a Christian brother

FR

RufusAtticus · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
OK Rufus, Let me ask you some questions then about this fairy tale you call a theory......

Okay, I'm curious if any are on actually about evolution. +3 Troll points for everyone not on target.

What is life? Is it just having the right combinations of proteins in just the right order? Is a man nothing more than a collection of substances and chemicals that happened to somehow `become alive`?

Evolution doesn't concern itself with answering that question. Evolution only deals with the diversity of life. Not what it is. Depending on how you define life, that question can be answered by science, religion, philosophy, or politics.

+3 Points, heck i'll be generous and give you and extra +3 points.

Did the human race just come about by accident or the big bang!

Nope, evolution has nothing to do with the big bang. +3 points.
Evolution is stocastic, not accidental. +3 points

Or did a monkey break his tale, fall out of a tree and turn into a man?

How lamarkain of you! + 3 points
Once again, individuals don't evolve, populations do. +7 points for not paying attention.

Total Points Today: +22 Troll Points

Pete Harcoff · Sep 17, 2002

And why should I go to a library and study a bunch of books that are written by men who support this atheistic teaching in the first place?

First you make a bunch of claims and arguments about evolution.

Then people inform you that your claims and arguments are based on a faulty and misguided understanding of evolution, and urge you to actually learn about what evolution really is about.

Then you totally refuse to learn about evolution by making yet another faulty assumption about evolution.

I see this going absolutely nowhere...

Sky · Sep 17, 2002

Please just at least consider evolution before you reject it.

franklin · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Evolution doesn't concern itself with answering that question. Evolution only deals with the diversity of life. Not what it is. Depending on how you define life, that question can be answered by science, religion, philosophy, or politics. 

Rufus, You can cut the tripe about the points for trolls.... your running that into the ground!! And as always you can't even give an honest answer to the quesions I posted which proves how phoney and deceptive your atheistic theory of evolution is!  Now your talking out of both sides of your mouth!  As is so common with liberal teachings and false theories.  Evolutionists claim that the process of life was started by some unknown process, millions (or billions) of years ago. This is the foundation of the evolutionary theory. Is there proof that this is really what happened?  

Sky · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
As is so common with liberal teachings and false theories.  Evolutionists claim that the process of life was started by some unknown process, millions (or billions) of years ago. This is the foundation of the evolutionary theory. Is there proof that this is really what happened?  

Yes. And please stop bashing liberals.

Pete Harcoff · Sep 17, 2002

Franklin, you're wasting your time.

You've already flat out refused to gain a proper understanding of what evolutionary theory is and what it teaches.

Your repeated questions, claims, and accusations serve no purpose other than to fester a pointless confrontation.

If you really want to learn what evolutionary theory is about, read a university-level textbook on the subject. But since you refuse to do so, well, what can we do?

Late_Cretaceous · Sep 17, 2002

You know, most universities have the Physics Dept and the Biology Dept in the same faculty. In the universtiy where I work, they are in adjacent buildings. NOw, if evolutionary theory somehow violated the second law of thermodynamics, wouldn't some physicist at some university somewhere walk across campus to inform his biologist collegues?

It should be pointed out that only a very small handfull of creationists even use the second law of thermodyanmics thing anymore. One reason is that the logic that claims that evolution violates the law, would also imply that life itself violates the law.
Another reason is, well it is just plain wrong and most creationists now realize this.
Franklin, you may want to check our the www.answersingenesis.com "arguements not to use anymore page". It is right at the top of the list.

blader · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
[
Hundreds of thousands of trained scientists around the world are writing evolution off as a major failure also!

That statement is pure, unadulterated, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. Hundreds of thousands? Where do you get that number? You'll be lucky to find just one hundred PhD scientists who aren't evolutionist. You'll be lucky to find fifty who teach at places other than Bible colleges. You'll be lucky to find ten who teach at a top ranked college.

franklin · Sep 17, 2002

  Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
You've already flat out refused to gain a proper understanding of what evolutionary theory is and what it teaches.

Do you know what the theory of Jack and the beanstawk is?  How far up into heaven did it go?  What kind of seeds were used to start it growing?  What I believe about evolution is that in accepting the theory of evolution, we are asked to accept as fact many other theories. Evolution is not one theory, but a complex series of theories. It is based upon many preconceived "facts". Any time someone begins piling theory upon theory, the stack of theories becomes like a chain. The failure of any one theory can easily nullify the others. In "believing" in evolution, we are asked to believe that all of the different forms of life on earth began from a "primeval soup". No one knows where this "soup" was, or what happened to it. No one can say what happened to suddenly bring forth life from the "soup".

 
Your repeated questions, claims, and accusations serve no purpose other than to fester a pointless confrontation.

Well why don't you try to answer the questions then?  If your theory is so true then answer the questions!  Your the one who is posting a pointless confrontation!  Give me a break! I'll repost those questions:

What is life?

Is it just having the right combinations of proteins in just the right order?

Is a man nothing more than a collection of substances and chemicals that happened to somehow `become alive`? 

Simple questions!  Give it your best shot! 

If you really want to learn what evolutionary theory is about, read a university-level textbook on the subject. But since you refuse to do so, well, what can we do?

Click to expand...

What in the world is there to learn about evolution anyway?!?  Like I quoted in the beginning of this post!  Why don't you learn how long Jacks beanstawk was?  How did he grow it?  That's just like asking someone to learn about something that doesn't exist and has never existed.  How many INCHES LONG do you suppose it is from one end of the universe to the other, at least with our present astronomical knowledge?  Can you guess? How outrageous does the data have to get before it becomes laughable? Remember that the theory of evolution says that this happened not once, but again and again and again.  It seems apparent to me that we are dealing not only with a ridiculous theory, but with a sick theory, an ignorant theory that has been hammered into the public's mind with a religious zeal. What else can you call it?

 

RufusAtticus · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by franklin
Rufus, You can cut the tripe about the points for trolls.... your running that into the ground!!

+3 Points for complaining about scoring.

And as always you can't even give an honest answer to the quesions I posted

I gave you an honest answer. If you disagree me, show, using objective evidence and not rhetoric, how I am dishonest. Otherwise, stop complaining. Furthermore, where is this "as always" coming from. Such a statement requires you to show a history of dishonesty on my part. Unless you do so, you have committed libel. But then again, it probably hasn't hurt me since I and most other people don't care what you think of me.

which proves how phoney and deceptive your atheistic theory of evolution is!

+3 Points, non-sequitor.
+3 Points for thinking evolution is atheistic. (Tell that to Dr. Dobzhansky.)

Now your talking out of both sides of your mouth!

+2 Points for not identifying what is coming out of which side. Such a statement requires me to be hypocritical, or atleast be telling contradictory lies. Since you haven't even apporached to show such things about me, your accusations are libelous rhetoric.

As is so common with liberal teachings and false theories.

+3 Points, non-sequitor and trying to evaluate science via politics.

Evolutionists claim that the process of life was started by some unknown process, millions (or billions) of years ago. This is the foundation of the evolutionary theory.

+7 Points for confusing the evolution of life and the origin of life. The study of evolution only investigates the mechanisms and history of the diversity of life. This is because evolution can only occur after life has. To call this the foundation of evolutionary theory shows that you really know absolutely nothing about it.

Total Troll Points: +21.

Sky · Sep 17, 2002

Rufus,

This guy is not going to listen to you or anyone else. He has come here solely for the purpose of arguing and causing division on this board.

MSBS · Sep 17, 2002

Franklin do you expect that your hatred for and your joyfull ignorance of science does you, your faith, or anyone viewing your posts any good?

What do people understand about you when they read your words?

1. You are ignorant of the subject of which you are speaking (you admit that you havn't actually read anything on the subject)-- your posts about what you think evolution is mistate the theory and consistantly rely on arguments that insist that evolution do something that theory doesn't predict.

2. You hate evolution and think scientists are liars.

3. Anyone that believes in evolution is either- stupid, deluded, or a liar.

4. I would say that you are being intentionally deceptive with your arguments, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say that you are just repeating the intentional deceptions of ICR and Dr. Dino and their like.

So then, what you are gaining by your posts is that you make your fellow christians look intolerant and ignorant. You estrange non-YEC christians. You make anyone looking for spiritual guidance in christianity shy away from christianity because of your own ignorance and intolerance. What do you hope with your posts? That your misrepresentation of evolution will cause someone to come to God? If your faith is strong why are you afraid to learn what evolution is really about?

Allthough I expect this to fall on deaf ears, I would suggest "Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution." It's an excellent book by Kenneth Miller, a christian that is also a biology professor. I gives an excellent overview of the theory of evolution for non-scientists, and also goes into depth as to why science and religion need not be at odds. Since it's not written by one of those evil atheist scientists you've been going on about, you should be OK.

Poll about evolutionary science

Evolutionary Theory is...:

Good quality, and useful science

Poor, or at best misguided, science where the evidence is misinterpreted

Nothing more then speculation, an idea with no valid evidence to support it.

A deliberate deception, perhaps even a conspiracy

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