That is the implication of a soul that can survive physical death isn't it? What you're calling 'memories' related to form would simply be a data download from the perspective of soul.
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So what you're saying (/writing) is that the memories of the brain isn't the same as the memories of the soul?
Not necessarily, I can think of some more explanations/implications.That is the implication of a soul that can survive physical death isn't it?
And when would this 'download' occur?What you're calling 'memories' related to form would simply be a data download from the perspective of soul.
Not necessarily, I can think of some more explanations/implications.
But that would be under the assumption that there is something that survives physical death.
And when would this 'download' occur?
And yet those experiences could still be explained by something non-spiritual.There are a lot of "out of body" reports associated with NDE's.
I understand. (Note the bold text)I would assume it occurs constantly actually.
Not to mention the fact that this would make the soul susceptible to malware infections or even viruses, worms, and God forbid Trojans.And yet those experiences could still be explained by something non-spiritual.
Why jump to the assumption of a soul?
I understand. (Note the bold text)
So if I put a fork through my frontal lobe, that would severely cripple my soul (or at least corrupt my current 'download')?
And yet those experiences could still be explained by something non-spiritual.
Why jump to the assumption of a soul?
It could potentially sever the connection and corrupt the current download.I understand. (Note the bold text)
So if I put a fork through my frontal lobe, that would severely cripple my soul (or at least corrupt my current 'download')?
Such mental limitations don't seem to have gotten in the way of anyone producing a computer or a cell phone or a iPad. All stuff breaks and goes bad over time. Surely you can't be suggesting that awareness and/or memory are somehow less 'real' due to their temporal nature?
Abstract concept or not, we all EXPERIENCE and have "memories" of something called "gravity' that (fortunately) makes us stick to the this planet, along with our atmosphere. The mind/brain is simply a "tool" with which we study "reality" as it exists. This planet is "real". Gravity is "real".
Haven't you been paying attention? I've never once deviated from that position!
No. I do not. I exist as a SOUL that inhabits this form. This form has "memories" and it's "aware" of things around it.
If that were the case, then we would not expect folks to claim to meet God during near death experiences, and we would not expect them to have "out of body" experiences. Unfortunately for your claim, folks do report such events during NDE's, about 4 times more frequently than "atheists" appear in any given population in fact.
Yes, I know how the atheistic meme works. I simply don't agree with it.
I provided two such references a few pages back (two and a half if you include the one accidental metaphysical link). You might look them up at least and see that people are in fact interested in the physics related to 'soul'.
The only point I was making earlier is that any expectation of "soul" to have "rest mass" is a silly expectation.
I'm saying your treating them as concrete things is incorrect. They're abstract concepts and should be treated as such.
We're still talking past one another. Let's try it this way. The BRAIN is physical. It's got real physical circuitry in there, and real pathways that are cut into the brain that are directly related to that "individual" and their particular way of processing and storing information. Likewise any "soul" would necessarily need to be "physical' at some level, even if it's a quantum level. The processing of information within that quantum container would also necessarily need to be 'unique' and customizable by the 'user' just like a brain. The data however isn't likely to contain REST MASS which was the POINT of my conversation before you jumped into the middle of it.I don't care how many concrete things you name, it doesn't make memories and experiences any more physical.
I've already provided some evidence of that in this thread. That Lancet report INCLUDES (does not exclude) out of body reports. That study also looked for and eliminated a series of "most likely possible physical causes' for these events.Baseless assertions will get you nowhere. Either supply evidence that you inhabit something other than your brain, or be quiet.
The notion that neurons fire isn't surprising. The fact the "experience"
That one is bit more interesting actually. Thanks. FYI, in the empirical theory of God thread I listed links to a "God helmet" that you might read through sometime. I think the EM field has the ability to explain ALL human experience, including the experiences of God. It therefore wouldn't surprise me to find that there are EM "entry" and "exit' mechanisms, including a way to trigger such events.
IT all warrants serious research. If "inflation' warrants 'research' anything and EVERYTHING warrants research.Not exactly peer-reviewed science, but arguments from ignorance aren't exactly worth any serious research.
Ya, but your handwave wasn't much of an argument so what exactly did you expect?Denial is not a refutation.
Maybe it's "silly" to approximately 4% of the planet perhaps. Who cares what they think? To the rest of the humanity it's not silly at all. It's something they take very seriously in fact.Expecting there to be a "soul" in the first place is even sillier.
My point is that the information itself (or lack thereof) doesn't actually change the mass of the flash drive. It's therefore irrational to insist that SOUL must NECESSARILY contain rest mass.
The "brain" is the "concrete thing" (physical container of awareness/information) in your example.
Likewise, there would necessarily need to be a "physical structure' related to 'soul'.
The "information" related to individuality however has no particular "rest mass", so it's not like I'd expect the body to lose any rest mass as a result of physical death. That was my whole point over the flash drive question.
Likewise any "soul" would necessarily need to be "physical' at some level, even if it's a quantum level. The processing of information within that quantum container would also necessarily need to be 'unique' and customizable by the 'user' just like a brain. The data however isn't likely to contain REST MASS which was the POINT of my conversation before you jumped into the middle of it.
I've already provided some evidence of that in this thread. That Lancet report INCLUDES (does not exclude) out of body reports. That study also looked for and eliminated a series of "most likely possible physical causes' for these events.
FYI, there are also any number of books and papers on the topic of past life memories.
The notion that neurons fire isn't surprising. The fact the "experience"
follow specific patterns and include specific events is surprising.
Empirical theory.
Thanks. FYI, in the empirical theory of God thread I listed links to a "God helmet" that you might read through sometime.
IT all warrants serious research. If "inflation' warrants 'research' anything and EVERYTHING warrants research.
Ya, but your handwave wasn't much of an argument so what exactly did you expect?
Maybe it's "silly" to approximately 4% of the planet perhaps. Who cares what they think? To the rest of the humanity it's not silly at all. It's something they take very seriously in fact.
Why assume a "soul" to begin with? Define a "soul" for me, will you? I'm not quite in the mood to backpedal through page upon page to find out.
I don't doubt that. The informational representation isn't destroyed upon death, at least according to those who've had NDE's.The physical representation of this info is destroyed upon physical death.
Every "religion" on the planet teaches/predicts that there is a "soul", including atheistic religions like Buddhism. It's not like *I PERSONALLY* came up with the idea/prediction, without scientific precedent, like Guth did with inflation theory.You assume there's a soul
Some physical THING is still required to hold information and process information.and that it's physical,
You'd have to read some of the theories associated with soul get a handle on WHY awareness is thought to be a quantum event.then immediately appeal to some nondescript quantum event that, for some reason, decides to record us.
The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrestI didn't read this nor do I wish to backpedal (as I've stated before).
My point is that you're pretty much ignoring and flippantly handwaving away at every bit of published data that doesn't jive with your preconceived ideas.And there's an entire series relating to the power of the spiral. What's your point?
Had you actually READ that Lancet study you'd know they checked for an eliminated that as a potential "cause" of these events. Many were undergoing CPR at the time.The notion that they fire during oxygen deprivation and result in people suffering from hallucinations, is not.
I mean that my belief in "God" doesn't require any leaps of faith in the "unseen" in the lab. There are purely empirical theories related to God.I have no idea what you mean by this.
For someone who's supposedly so well versed on the actual published science, you're not making yourself look good by handwaving in arguments that have already been considered and eliminated in PUBLISHED works.I know of this. Unlike a certain someone, I try to keep up with scientific discoveries. Granted I don't do very well; but then again who can keep up with so much progress?
You clearly have no idea what "my" God is, where it might be, or how it might manifest itself in the lab. In case you ever actually are curious how *I* define God:They did the research. There was no sign of your god anywhere.
Oh, I see. It's argument by rude behavior.I gave you an accurate representation of reality. If you disagree you can take your opinion and shove it into the dark crevice from which it came.
So why are you here on a religious website again? If you don't care with theists believe, why are you even here on a "Christian" website discussing such topics in the first place?I don't care what they think.
My point is that the information itself (or lack thereof) doesn't actually change the mass of the flash drive. It's therefore irrational to insist that SOUL must NECESSARILY contain rest mass.
So does the information "inhabit" the flash drive in some way?
A lot of religions have some concept about all information being stored and retrieved in "Akashic records". Lots of folks report 'life reviews" during the NDE process that allows them to observe the EFFECTS of their actions on OTHERS, not just the effect on themselves.Is there a "flash drive soul" that keeps the informations when the drive is destroyed? Or what happens to that information?
Welcome to quantum mechanics! Niels Bohr supposedly once said:
"Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it".
Education and Degrees:
Dr. Ari Brynjolfsson was born and raised in Iceland where he graduated in the math and sciences line from Mentaskólinn a Akureyri in 1948. He studied nuclear physics at the Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark, 1948-1954, where he received Cand. Mag. and Mag Scient. (Ph.D) in 1954. Dr. Brynjolfsson was a special research fellow of University of Iceland from 1954 to 1955, and an Alexander von Humboldt fellow of the University of Göttingen, Germany, from 1955 to 1957. In 1973, he received a Doctor Philosophiae (DSc) from the Niels Bohrs Institute, University of Copenhagen.
Dr. Brynjolfssons Mag. Scient. (PhD) thesis focused on cosmic radiation and the design and construction of a sensitive and accurate magnetometer for measuring the magnetization of rocks. He subsequently used the magnetometer in Iceland to trace prehistoric variations in the Earths magnetic field, including the reversal of Earths magnetic field; and the more recent secular variations that indicated that Aristoteles saw the Northern Lights, as illustrated in his writings. See Phil. Mag. 6(23), (1957) 247.
Dr. Brynjolfssons Doctor Philosophiae (DSc) thesis, Some Aspects of the Interactions of Fast Charged Particles with Matter, improved three major aspects of the stopping power theory developed mainly by Niels Bohr, Hans Bethe, and Enrico Fermi. His thesis improved a) the frequency limits, b) the estimates of the Cherenkov radiation, and c) the estimates of the energy levels in the solid materials conventionally used for stopping power measurements. These changes improved the theoretical estimates from about 1% to about 0.1%. The best experimental accuracy is about 0.1%.
Dr., Brynjolfssons theory for the stopping of charged particles was useful for discovering the plasma redshift of photons in 1978. The plasma redshift has been overlooked due to the approximations used and because this cross section is insignificant in laboratory experiments. It is important only in very hot sparse plasmas, like those in the corona of the Sun and in intergalactic space.
Special Studies:
Fellowship University of Reykjavik, Iceland, 19541955
Alexander von Humboldt Fellow University of Göttingen, Germany, 19551957
AMP, Harvard Business School, Boston, Massachusetts, 1971
Primary Positions:
Head of Danish AEC Radiation Facilities at Risø 1957-1965, with focus on research and industrial applications of radiation
Head of US Army Radiation Facilities, Natick, Massachusetts, 1965-1980, with focus on research and industrial applications of radiation
Special Assistant for Physics, Natick, 1980-1988
Director of IFFIT of the Joint FAO/IAEA, United Nations, 1988-1992, with focus on international training and applications of radiation
Director, Applied Radiation Industries, Wayland, Massachusetts, 1992 - present
Awards:
Møller Foundation Award for exceptional service to Danish Industry, 1965
Radiation Science and Technology Award of the American Nuclear Society, 1988
Dr. Ari Brynjolfsson - National Science Foundation
Amazon.com: Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul eBook: william bray: Kindle Store
Amazon.com: The Quantum Physics of Soul and Spirit (9781561708253): Deepak Chopra, Amit Goswami: Books
You have your pick of mathematical models to choose from. There's the $3.00 version to choose from, or the $100.00 version.
I don't doubt that. The informational representation isn't destroyed upon death, at least according to those who've had NDE's.
Every "religion" on the planet teaches/predicts that there is a "soul", including atheistic religions like Buddhism.
It's not like *I PERSONALLY* came up with the idea/prediction, without scientific precedent, like Guth did with inflation theory.
Some physical THING is still required to hold information and process information.
You'd have to read some of the theories associated with soul get a handle on WHY awareness is thought to be a quantum event.
FYI, It's not considered 'backpeddling" to actually read the thread and the materials presented in the thread before jumping into the middle of it. It's called "research".
My point is that you're pretty much ignoring and flippantly handwaving away at every bit of published data that doesn't jive with your preconceived ideas.
Had you actually READ that Lancet study you'd know they checked for an eliminated that as a potential "cause" of these events. Many were undergoing CPR at the time.
I mean that my belief in "God" doesn't require any leaps of faith in the "unseen" in the lab. There are purely empirical theories related to God.
For someone who's supposedly so well versed on the actual published science,
you're not making yourself look good by handwaving in arguments that have already been considered and eliminated in PUBLISHED works.
You clearly have no idea what "my" God is, where it might be, or how it might manifest itself in the lab. In case you ever actually are curious how *I* define God:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/
Oh, I see. It's argument by rude behavior.
You gave me YOUR OPINIONS about "reality".
So why are you here on a religious website again? If you don't care with theists believe, why are you even here on a "Christian" website discussing such topics in the first place?
If they had been testable, sure. As it is, all results from tests I've seen are pretty much met with "I know I'm right, I don't care if your study says I'm wrong. You need to change this.", repeat to infinity.Define "jump to" for me. Every religion "predicts" life after death and the existence of soul. Even Buddhists predict a soul, and most Buddhists are atheists. If "predictions" matter to science, shouldn't we consider such a prediction in terms of it's scientific value?
Including is fine, one among many alternative hypotheses.Lot's of folks report the existence of awareness while outside of their form during near death experience. Some have reported events occurring AWAY from their body at the time. There 'could be' a lot of reasons, but why NOT include the obvious possibility?
Elimination of other hypotheses doesn't strengthen those left, the number of alternative hypotheses are infinite after all.Note also the Lancet study looked for and eliminated a lot of potential physical causes for these events. I'm not so much "jumping to" anything that person themselves didn't already "believe" and tell me in many cases.
So one would spend eternity as a mental cripple? Harsh.It could potentially sever the connection and corrupt the current download.Potentially even the experiences in life could alter the soul. You could call it a 'malware' of sorts.
That is interesting, sort of like that wonderful life movie that they play on tv every year at christmas.NDE process that allows them to observe the EFFECTS of their actions on OTHERS, not just the effect on themselves.
I have had dreams about the future and dreams about places I have not been to yet. How do we explain things like that?Lot's of folks report the existence of awareness while outside of their form during near death experience. Some have reported events occurring AWAY from their body at the time. There 'could be' a lot of reasons, but why NOT include the obvious possibility?
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