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JBrian said:By asking this question I am assuming that you are trying to show a change (the relation of Lucifer) that occured outside of time. However, we have no way of knowing when Lucifer (Satan, since the name Lucifer is not in the original Hebrew, but is rather a translation from the Latin which simply means "Light-bearer.") was thrown out of heaven. For all we know, it could have been after the universe was created. Either way he existed in time, since they (the angels) are circumscribed to a particular location, and so they had to move, and to move implies a before and after, so the angels were in time. So no change is occuring outside of time.
Neverstop said:Not quite....his getting tossed is not germane to the creation of the universe because he was in Heaven. Heaven does not exist in time, therefore, his change occurred outside of time.
JBrian said:What reference are you refering to? And any creaure that is created, circumscribed to one place, and is subject to before and after is in time. God is not in time. Angels are in fact in time. There are many presuppositions concerning the fall of Satan. What reference are you looking at?
Remember, God does not just live in a place called heaven. Heaven is not eternal. Only God is eternal. He is not circumscribed to a place called heaven.
Neverstop said:Heaven is not eternal? It's going to take some time for me to get my mind wrapped around that concept.
JBrian said:What is your definition/concept of heaven? I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. No place, person, or creature is eternal except God. There is no eternal place. Otherwise it would have been uncreated, like God. God is the only uncreated. Can you show me from Scripture that heaven is eternal?
however it is impossible for the universe be infinite, that is, infnite in time. An infinite has no beginning and no end. This moment is the end moment in time. If the universe has existed from the infinite past we never would have reached this moment. But we have, so it is not infinite regarding time.
Time has no beginning, as you said.
JBrian said:Time does have a beginning, which is my whole argument. My thesis is that the universe can't be eternal. Something that is eternal does not have a beginning, but time does. Where did time begin? At the creation of the universe.
If I said that time has no beginning then I didn't mean to. Where did I say that?
If time has a beginning, the universe could be regarded as eternal. If the universe existed at t=0, then it would be uncreated, since there was no previous instant when it did not exist. The universe will always have been, which fits the concept of "eternal" quite well.
Exist said:I think I disagree with this. Time has existed for as long as time has existed; that doesn't mean that time is eternal (heh, even though time has existed "for all time"). There would be a definite starting point.
:æ: said:Something is eternal if it exists for all real time values. Since time is a feature of the universe, the universe must so exist. Therefore, the universe is eternal.
What the heck does "starting point" even mean in the absence of time?Exist said:I think I disagree with this. Time has existed for as long as time has existed; that doesn't mean that time is eternal (heh, even though time has existed "for all time"). There would be a definite starting point.
But there isn't any such event in evidence. Indeed, to identify such an event as the creation of the universe, we would need to obeserve the state of the universe's non-existence, and then a subsequent state of its existence. We have never observed the universe not existing, however, so we could not have observed its coming into existence.JBrian said:Where did time begin? At the creation of the universe.
Why not? I've seen this asserted many times before, but I've never seen anyone successfully defend it.If time had no beginnning then we would never have reached this time.
:æ: said:Something is eternal if it exists for all real time values. Since time is a feature of the universe, the universe must so exist. Therefore, the universe is eternal.
All of you making reference to "outside of time" must first demonstrate the validity of said reference before you can premise an argue upon it. AFAIK, using prepositions like "in" and "outside" to describe time iis nothing more than metaphor at best, and simply nonsensical at worst.
Keep in mind that space and time are not two separate things. Prepositions like "in" and "outside" describe relations IN space-time and are meaningless without the presupposed existence of space-time. Therefore speaking about being "outside time" seems about as meaningful as speaking about being "in the corner of the circle."
Neverstop said:How is time a feature of the universe?
How is space and time the same thing?
Eudaimonist said:Change is a feature of the universe. Time is a measure of change.
See Einstein's theory of relativity.
Avatar said:Blah. Eternal means 'all time'. The universe is necessarily eternal since it has existed for all time (time having begun with the universe).
The logical problem is, that in the absence of time nothing can begin.Lilly of the Valley said:It had a beginning.....thus it's not eternal, which means w/o beginning and end. Only God is that.
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