Peter's Vision

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Works both ways my friend. The facts be the facts. Live with it.

Any of your so-called "facts" cannot supersede or contradict the words of Jesus.

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

pescador said:
What is this in reply to?

"Hark" the person whose post I quoted. To see what he said click on "expand" in his post.

dqhall · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua lived long before the niqqud.

Yeshu (ישו in the Hebrew alphabet) is the name of an individual or individuals mentioned in rabbinic literature,[1] which historically has been assumed to be a reference to Jesus when used in the Talmud. The name Yeshu is also used in other sources before and after the completion of the Babylonian Talmud. It is also the modern Israeli spelling of Jesus.

Another explanation given is that the name "Yeshu" is actually an acronym for the formula (ימח שמו וזכרו(נו (Y'mach Sh'mo V'Zichro(no)), meaning "may his name and memory be obliterated".

Yeshu - Wikipedia

Jesus’ name derived from the Hebrew Yahoshua, meaning Yahweh is salvation.

All the fury of Israel can not obliterate Jesus.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

dqhall said:
Jesus’ name derived from the Hebrew Yahoshua, meaning Yahweh is salvation.

Hallelu YAH!

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Any of your so-called "facts" cannot supersede or contradict the worse of Jesus.

I don't believe that Acts contradicts Yahshua. If I were you; I would go back and read it carefully; and try to harmonize scripture, instead of chopping sections of the bible out. This calls for understanding.

Seriously, you are missing out on a lot of valuable information.

Just because some believers were kicked out of some synagogues; doesn't mean that all believers were kicked out of all synagogues. There is no contradiction unless you make one.

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua lived long before the niqqud.
Yeshu (ישו in the Hebrew alphabet) is the name of an individual or individuals mentioned in rabbinic literature,[1] which historically has been assumed to be a reference to Jesus when used in the Talmud. The name Yeshu is also used in other sources before and after the completion of the Babylonian Talmud. It is also the modern Israeli spelling of Jesus.
Another explanation given is that the name "Yeshu" is actually an acronym for the formula (ימח שמו וזכרו(נו (Y'mach Sh'mo V'Zichro(no)), meaning "may his name and memory be obliterated".
Yeshu - Wikipedia

You're kidding, right? Wiki has [Edit] links in every article. Anyone can post, change or delete anything at any time without review. It is about as reliable as the scribbling on a public facility wall.
Niqquds are irrelevant!
Yeshu is NOT Yeshua.
The name ישׁוע occurs 29 times in the OT. In the 1917 JPS translation of the OT it is transliterated as Jeshua.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God
In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being, probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" ( חי־יהוה = "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").
Jewish Encyclopedia online

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Yeshu is NOT Yeshua.

There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus. The name used in the Talmud is "Yeshu", the Aramaic vocalization (though not spelling) of the Hebrew name Yeshua.[1][2]

Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
You're kidding, right? Wiki has [Edit] links in every article. Anyone can post, change or delete anything at any time without review. It is about as reliable as the scribbling on a public facility wall.

Not when sources are cited my friend.

BobRyan · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
No! You make Yeshua a liar by denying that Christians were not persecuted beaten and killed .

You are mistaken - look at the 1260 years of persecution of Christians during the dark ages --

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't believe that Acts contradicts Yahshua. If I were you; I would go back and read it carefully; and try to harmonize scripture, instead of chopping sections of the bible out. This calls for understanding.
Seriously, you are missing out on a lot of valuable information.
Just because some believers were kicked out of some synagogues; doesn't mean that all believers were kicked out of all synagogues. There is no contradiction unless you make one.

Everything you said applies to you more than me. I do harmonize scripture anything the disciples wrote must be interpreted to agree with what Jesus said not the wrong way round as you are doing.
You are the one chopping sections of the Bible out to make it appear to support you assumptions/presuppositions.
Just because some gentiles were in one synagogue does not mean all gentiles were permitted in all synagogues.
The following are a few verses where Jews persecuted the apostles.

Acts of the apostles 4:5-6
5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
Acts of the apostles 4:17-19
17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Acts of the apostles 4:5-6
5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
Acts of the apostles 5:17-18
17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
acts of the apostles 5:26
Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
Acts of the apostles Act 5:33
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
Acts of the apostles 5:40
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Acts of the apostles 6:9
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
acts of the apostles Act 7:59
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts of the apostles 12:1-2
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Acts of the apostles 12:3
3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
Acts of the apostles 13:50
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
Acts of the apostles 14:5
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
Acts of the apostles 14:19
19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Acts of the apostles 16:19
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Acts of the apostles 16:22
22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
Acts of the apostles 17:5
5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
Acts of the apostles 17:13
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.
Acts of the apostles 18:12
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Not when sources are cited my friend.

Then go to the primary sources and quote them not second/third hand quotes from tentmaker etc.
You have no assurance that the primary sources are correctly quoted and have not been edited by someone else.
Always go to primary sources.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Just because some gentiles were in one synagogue does not mean all gentiles were permitted in all synagogues.

That's an excellent observation. Now add that to what I told you earlier; and you should find harmony in the scripture.

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus. The name used in the Talmud is "Yeshu", the Aramaic vocalization (though not spelling) of the Hebrew name Yeshua.[1][2]
Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

Virtually everything in the Talmud about Yeshua is derogatory.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Then go to the primary sources and quote them not second/third hand quotes from tentmaker etc.
You have no assurance that the primary sources are correctly quoted and have not been edited by someone else.
Always go to primary sources.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've studied this stuff for a couple of decades now. I just went to a quick and easy source to to support my claim. Want to prove my source wrong. Have at it. The onus is now on you to come up with a more credible source to refute my source. That's how logical arguments work. Oh, and by the way, the Jewish Encyclopedia is far from an unbiased source. The great thing about Wikipedia is that all have an opportunity to participate; so you can get multiple sides of the same debate.

I will say this. If you want to knit pick on minor details which aren't relevant to answering the OP; start your own thread. We don't want to derail this thread too far off topic.

Shalom

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Virtually everything in the Talmud about Yeshua is derogatory.

And? You're going to trust in the Pharisees, to tell you your Messiah's name? The same guys who blotted YHWH's name out of the TaNaK about 7000 times?

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
That's an excellent observation. Now add that to what I told you earlier; and you should find harmony in the scripture.

Take your own advice. You still reinterpret your proof texts making them contradict the words of Jesus. Read the book of acts and see how many times the apostles were persecuted.
If so many Christians were going to synagogues why is church mentioned twenty two times and synagogues only five times in acts.

Acts of the apostles 4:5-6

5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
Acts of the apostles 4:17-19
17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Acts of the apostles 5:17-18
17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
acts of the apostles 5:26
Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
Acts of the apostles Act 5:33
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
Acts of the apostles 5:40
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Acts of the apostles 6:9
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
acts of the apostles Act 7:59
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts of the apostles 12:1-2
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Acts of the apostles 12:3
3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
Acts of the apostles 13:50
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
Acts of the apostles 14:5
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
Acts of the apostles 14:19
19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
Acts of the apostles 16:19
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Acts of the apostles 16:22
22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
Acts of the apostles 17:5
5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
Acts of the apostles 17:13
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.
Acts of the apostles 18:12
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

a-lily-of-peace · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul was telling the Corinthians to physically keep YHWH's Moed (feast)

(CLV) 1Co 5:8
so that we may be keeping the festival, not with old leaven, nor yet with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened sincerity and truth.

If you keep Pesach, do you do it as described in Numbers 28:16-25? I’m assuming not, because there is no temple to make sacrifice, but I would consider that the reason the feast is not kept as described in the torah of Moses does directly relate to the fact that these things are being fulfilled in the spirit now. Passover remembrance is about Christ and his Kingdom, the new Jerusalem.

Mark 2:22 - remember that when the old wine skins were first used, at the time, they were new wine skins. They only became old by merit of having held the wine. But when it comes time for new wine, it comes time for new skins.

I don’t actually disagree about the appointed times, but I’m only now learning them. And from my own understanding, there are three which remain to be fulfilled (Feast of Trumpets / Numbers 29:1-6, Day of Atonement / Numbers 29:7-11, and Feast of Tabernacles / Numbers 29:12-38) and they all seem to be “shadows” of events to come described in Revelation.

My main concern is both understanding God’s will as well as keeping my eyes and heart on the Kingdom to come.

What are your thoughts on the idea that “heaven and earth shall pass away” (Matthew 24:35 reflected in 2 Peter 3:10) describes a literal destruction of all matter in creation?

Der Alte · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
And? You're going to trust in the Pharisees, to tell you your Messiah's name? The same guys who blotted YHWH's name out of the TaNaK about 7000 times?

Biased rubbish which does not merit a reasoned response. If you wish to engage in a discussion with me get your facts straight.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
If so many Christians were going to synagogues why is church mentioned twenty two times and synagogues only five times in acts.

I don't know where you get your bogus information; but synagogue appears 23 times in Acts; and for some reason you seem to think that the Ecclesia is a building.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

Der Alter said:
Biased rubbish which does not merit a reasoned response.

Thanks for your response.

Shalom

Peter's Vision

Is this passage a green light to violate YHWH's Torah?

Yes

No

Not in a box. Not with a fox.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

שמע

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

Junior Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency