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A few paragraphs later, we find this:
"845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 [emphasis added]
The reference to "the Church" above, means the Roman Catholic Church. That is clear from the section. If necessary, I can provide additional cites to the same section.
Dave
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
Pope Pius XII, in the encyclical Summi Pontificatus, clarifies the issue in Unam Sanctam:
"Nor can We pass over in silence the profound impression of heartfelt gratitude made on Us by the good wishes of those who, though not belonging to the visible body of the Catholic Church, have given noble and sincere expression to their appreciation of all that unites them to Us in love for the Person of Christ or in belief in God."
Regarding paragraph 846, whats your point? It pretty much restates what we've been telling you over and over.
Pope Pius XII, in the encyclical Summi Pontificatus, clarifies the issue in Unam Sanctam:
"Nor can We pass over in silence the profound impression of heartfelt gratitude made on Us by the good wishes of those who, though not belonging to the visible body of the Catholic Church, have given noble and sincere expression to their appreciation of all that unites them to Us in love for the Person of Christ or in belief in God."
Summi Pontificatus (whole text)
Edit: Regarding paragraph 846, whats your point? It pretty much restates what we've been telling you over and over.
See the qualifer there?
It means that those that know that the CC is Christ's Church but rejected it then they will not be saved.
It goes on to say;
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your namethe name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.
Maybe someday...
Peace
No, that statement does not clarify the issue. It does not speak to the issue of 'salvation' outside the RCC. It simply refers to others who love the person of Christ or believe in God.
It restates what Unam Sanctam and other writings say, to wit:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" [emphasis original]
"Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body." [emphasis supplied] Good editing job, putting a positive face on it, but THE SAME POSITION.
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation."
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
Etc.
Dave
beamishboy said:"Clarifies" or "corrects"? So, does it mean an unadulterated Unam Sanctam is wrong? It has to be qualified, right?
Make sure ya don't get caught with yer pants down
John 17:11 And not still I-am in the world, and these in the world are, and I near/toward/proV <4314> Thee am-coming/ercomai <2064> (5736)........
Reve 16:15 Behold! I am coming/ercomai <2064> (5736) as a thief. Happy is the one-watching and keeping the garments of him, that no naked he may be about-walking and they may be observing the indecency [*of him].
"Clarifies" or "corrects"? So, does it mean an unadulterated Unam Sanctam is wrong? It has to be qualified, right?
That is what the Orthodox and Reformationists didA doctrine can be furthered clarified and can be developed furthered by prayer and study.
Peace
Notice I provided you with the full text. Its pretty clear, given the mountain of evidence both from the Catechism and papal encyclicals, that the Catholic Church does not believe that Protestants cannot receive salvation.
The Unam Sanctam is not wrong, the conclusions you are infering from it are.
The Unam Sanctam is not wrong, the conclusions you are infering from it are.
First of all, that necessitates the assumption that the RCC is in fact Christ's church. You do recognize that as an assumption, correct?
Secondly, please explain and clarify these words:
"knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ"
What is meant by 'knowing'? Please define the word as applied in this specific situation. And how would that apply to Baptists, or Lutherans, or AG, etc., who have studied the Bible, studied history, studied Church teachings, and reached the conclusion that the RCC is not Christ's church? There are many, many such people FYI. How would this apply to them?
Thirdly, I note that the class excluded from the referenced 'affirmation' are those who "do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church. That would exclude Protestants, correct? They DO know the gospel: "By grace are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." "Being justified freely by His grace . . ."
Dave
Why would it matter to atheists, Jews or Muslims whether they believed the RCC is Christ's church or not?As stated earlier it's a matter of faith. Hince they do not know, because they do not belive that the CC is Christ's Church.
I'm sorry I can't let it go because it's not true. This is what the Unam Sanctam says "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." My conclusions are not wrong. How else can you conclude from that? Let me try Thekla's method. "Necessary" does not mean "necessary"? How do you interpret that sentence if mine is wrong? Go ahead and try. You will see that either you say the Unam Sanctam is dead wrong or you have to do this incredible balancing act that robs the RCC of credibility. Come all RCs, interpret this:
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
I don't care what you say AFTER the Unam Sanctam. That's what it says and I'm asking you again, are you willing to be honest enough to say it's wrong? Don't say my interpretation is wrong (which is what RCs are so good at saying; how else can YOU interpret it?)
Note the language which you also have quoted:
"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337"
Protestants DO KNOW the gospel of Christ. Thus, by the terms of this statement, they are included within the 'affirmation.'
The language of the Unam Sanctam is clear and unequivocal, with respect to the issue of salvation. Based on the common, denoted meaning of the words used therein, there is no reasonable ground for misunderstanding. Let's look at it again, as cited in the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"""Declaratio quod subesse Romano Pontifici est omni humanae creaturae de necessitate salutis" (It is here stated that for salvation it is necessary that every human creature be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff). This definition, the meaning and importance of which are clearly evident from the connection with the first part on the necessity of the one Church for salvation, and on the pope as the one supreme head of the Church, expresses the necessity for everyone who wishes to attain salvation of belonging to the Church, and therefore of being subject to the authority of the pope in all religious matters. This has been the constant teaching of the Church . . ." [emphasis supplied]
beamishboy said:I don't care what you say AFTER the Unam Sanctam. That's what it says and I'm asking you again, are you willing to be honest enough to say it's wrong? Don't say my interpretation is wrong (which is what RCs are so good at saying; how else can YOU interpret it?)
beamishboy said:I'm sorry I can't let it go because it's not true. This is what the Unam Sanctam says "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." My conclusions are not wrong. How else can you conclude from that? Let me try Thekla's method. "Necessary" does not mean "necessary"? How do you interpret that sentence if mine is wrong? Go ahead and try. You will see that either you say the Unam Sanctam is dead wrong or you have to do this incredible balancing act that robs the RCC of credibility. Come all RCs, interpret this:
Why would it matter to atheists, Jews or Muslims whether they believed the RCC is Christ's church or not?
Trying saying that in Iran or Saudia Arabia or heck, even in the US todayNow if the CC is Christ's Church and the Pope it's head, then a secular kingdom(France and it's king) is subject to the Christ's kingdom the CC and it's head the Pope.
Oh ok. I would just as soon they believe JESUS is Lord and Savior of the world then let them pick a Denomination to join after they come to YHWH's Christ, Jesus.If the belived that the RCC is Christ's Church then they wouldn't be atheists, jews or muslims. They would be Catholics.
Peace
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