Peter Is Not The Rock!

squint · Sep 19, 2008

narnia59 said:
Ive already agreed that you are indeed excommunicated, as in, not in communion with the Catholic church.

Excommunication is at least in part condemnation. As we know from Word when one is forced to measure condemnation to OTHERS they do in fact bring that same into their own heart. Don't have that issue for myself.

It has nothing to do with my being civil, although I do strive to be, so thank you for noticing. I also have never questioned that you possess desirable Christian virtues, but I am glad you know you do.

Debateable point whether or not you are allowed to make that measure... I do know without any uncertainty that God is not now nor will He ever be AGAINST loving my neighbors and even my enemies as myself. And when LOVE does transpire those who DO SO both know God and are BORN OF GOD...no matter what form of Jesus is painted across their lips and no matter how many doctrinal impositions are applied to try and STOP that working. No amount of the doctrines of damnation, permanent or temporary, no amounts of condemnation permanent or temporary will BE ABLE stop that working of Him in the hearts of mankind. IF doctrines are in place to STOP THAT from transpiring they will assuredly FAIL.

What remains, however, is the claim you have made that because the church views you as excommunicated, it also says you have no chance of salvation. If you have a Catholic source that indicates that to be the case, I would be happy to see that. I believe you have placed this burden on your own back brother, and could certainly be free of it at your own choosing.

My own back brother? How is it you call me brother apart from communion? I'm sure you know that to even dialog with publically denounced excommunicated people an RCC member may bring sentence upon themselves as well?

No, I am not 'personally' publically banned. I only read THE RCC's measures to make THEIR determinations. It really does not matter to me one whit what kind of blockades they have erected against me or our fellow man. God's command is securely in place regardless and that command is to love our neighbors as ourselves. When THAT command is done BY HIM in us, ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS is fulfilled regardless of the RCC structures that say otherwise. I will not be trading in His Measures for the ones you are FORCED to use to bring condemnation to your fellow man, and imho yourself in the process. But of course the RCC has been busy laying your sins upon your back and selling you temporary absolutions for quite a long time, which in part is how we got to where we are today isn't it?

Based on my knowledge of Catholics which spans about 50 years now, I would have to say that your venture is incorrect. But were really not speaking about what views individual Catholics may have, for they may or may not align with church teaching.

As stated, I would venture the majority of RCC adherents cannot quite extend purgatory as a possibility for ALL mankind. And in that they too receive into themselves a REFLECTION of their OWN hearts....

If individuals have opted for the burden of the judgment of their fellow man, you are correct, it is their burden.

Indeed. Would that they measured themselves the same way.

But they have chosen it on their own, and are actually taking upon themselves a role the church says is reserved only for God.

Yeah, unfortunately mankinds choice is often the only culprit in these matters. Another shill upon which to lay the blame in order to bring condemnation to same and to exonerate 'self' in the process. Quite a faulty measure.

Romans 2:1 strictly forbids the practice of condemnation of sinners by other sinners but they are led to do so anyway. And in fact by the Words saying NOT to do it, that same admonishment actually PROVOKES this to happen so that we would ALL see what is really a condition of our own hearts and that we would then flee from those measures.

enjoy!

squint

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

Rhamiel said:
Anglian
I just thought something, even if the Catholic Church accepts that Peter is not the Rock, Jesus still gave him authority with the passing of the keys and the role of papal primacy still stands, just from a plain reading of the Bible it seems to make Peter look like the Rock but maybe I am looking at it through "Rome tinted glasses"

What were those keys? Were they not the ability to loose and bind sins and perform the sacraments?

Was it not, in effect, the ability to baptise and administer The Holy Eucharist?

The other Apostles were given this as well. Scripture testifies to that.

The Apostles were equals. Peter was the 1st among equals because he was the eldest at the time. Notice however that James, who was older that Peter, becomes the Bishop of Jerusalem first as he accepted Jesus as God when Jesus presented himself to his brother in the Temple after Christ's resurrection.

We do not doubt that Peter was 1st among the Apostles. We do not doubt that Rome held a place of honor and primacy.

We doubt that Rome was left in charge of the whole earthly Church. We doubt that Rome was correct in claiming to have authority over the other Churches.

Every Bishop was capable of administering the sacraments and that is all that any Church required. They were all seperate (autonomous) yet unified in faith and practice. This being refered to as communion from the same cup.

When did Rome EVER have authority over Antioch? If she did not ever have authority over Antioch then her argument of authority over the whole Church is false. Rome has authority over Rome.

No matter how big or small... the autonomous Churches are equals in their authority to administer to the Christian needs of their community.

Rhamiel said:
I used to have problems with Peter being the Rock when the Bible calls Jesus the Rock. first off, I think we can drop the "R", this is not a title, it is poetic language, Jesus is the Rock because He is what I cling to in this tumultious world, Peter is the Rock because Jesus used him as a leader of the apostles, Peters proffesion of Faith is also Rock. Rock is not a legal term, it is a sign of something being strong and something you can build on.

I agree with much of what you have said.

Forgive me...

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA said:
It is true that Antioch has never made such a claim.

Forgive me...

Interesting. Always remember, before Abraham and Peter there was our Lord JESUS.

John 8:58 Said to them [*the] Jesus "amen amen I-am-saying to ye, before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) I AM"

Reve 22:6 And he said to me: "These the Words faithful and true. And [*the] Lord, the God of the spirits [*holy] of the prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) in swiftness.

genesqai <1096> (5635) Used 37 times. First time in Matt 20:26 last time in Reve 22:6

Rhamiel · Sep 19, 2008

The keys do not just signify being able to fogive sins and the other sacrements, it is a sign that St. Peter was the vicar of Christ, in the OT when a king gave someone keys that set them up as a sort of Prime Minister, none of the other apostles were given keys, The Lord said to Peter "Feed my sheep" not "feed my sheep who happen to live in Rome and be sure not to bother the other apostles"
The Pope should respect the autonomy of the other Churches, and for the most part he does, look at how the Pope interacts with the Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite Churches, it is a meeting of equals

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

Rhamiel said:
The keys do not just signify being able to fogive sins and the other sacrements, it is a sign that St. Peter was the vicar of Christ, in the OT when a king gave someone keys that set them up as a sort of Prime Minister, none of the other apostles were given keys, The Lord said to Peter "Feed my sheep" not "feed my sheep who happen to live in Rome and be sure not to bother the other apostles"
The Pope should respect the autonomy of the other Churches, and for the most part he does, look at how the Pope interacts with the Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite Churches, it is a meeting of equals

Vicar is not a Christian term nor idea.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Feed my sheep has nothing to do with keys.

Forgive me...

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

Rhamiel said:
The keys do not just signify being able to fogive sins and the other sacrements, it is a sign that St. Peter was the vicar of Christ, in the OT when a king gave someone keys that set them up as a sort of Prime Minister, none of the other apostles were given keys, The Lord said to Peter "Feed my sheep" not "feed my sheep who happen to live in Rome and be sure not to bother the other apostles"
The Pope should respect the autonomy of the other Churches, and for the most part he does, look at how the Pope interacts with the Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite Churches, it is a meeting of equals

Greetings. Do the EO bishops also kiss the Pope's ring or each others ring [not sure of the custom of the EO on this]. I saw a discussion on it on another forum

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/167181-would-you-kiss-popes-ring.html

If you were to meet the Pope in person, would you kiss his ring?

quote OP poseter: I voted "No".

I'd kiss the feet of Jesus, but I wouldn't kiss the Pope's ring.
It's just an inanimate object, and respecting him and the position doesn't require that act

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. Do the EO bishops also kiss the Pope's ring or each others ring [not sure of the custom of the EO on this]. I saw a discussion on it on another forum

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/167181-would-you-kiss-popes-ring.html

If you were to meet the Pope in person, would you kiss his ring?

I voted "No".

I'd kiss the feet of Jesus, but I wouldn't kiss the Pope's ring.
It's just an inanimate object, and respecting him and the position doesn't require that act

The hand, no ring...

Forgive me...

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA said:
The hand, no ring...

Forgive me...

So just shaking the hand is not ok? Do the EO call him Holy Father and kiss each others hand?

MoNiCa4316 · Sep 19, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA,

what do you think of these ideas..

in the OT, there are "keys" mentioned too, and they signify something like the "prime minister" office. When Jesus tells Peter about the keys, He uses very similar words as in the OT! (I made a post about this several pages ago)

Also, Iraneaus said:

"With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition"

more than primacy? something like ..infallibility? if apostolic tradition was maintained by Rome in the early church, why not today?

what do you think.

also check out this article: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num12.htm

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
So just shaking the hand is not ok? Do the EO call him Holy Father and kiss each others hand?

They don't shake hands in the East... the kiss of peace is what you are looking for.

Forgive me...

Rhamiel · Sep 19, 2008

Ok, if you do not want to use the term Vicar, then we do not have to, and we do not have to talk about Jesus calling Peter to feed His sheep, but what about Isaiah22:20-24 20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat [a] of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars

this seems to put more importance on the role of hainding over keys, pluss notice the same language is used when it comes to binding

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

MoNiCa4316 said:
OrthodoxyUSA,

what do you think of these ideas..

in the OT, there are "keys" mentioned too, and they signify something like the "prime minister" office. When Jesus tells Peter about the keys, He uses very similar words as in the OT! (I made a post about this several pages ago)

Also, Iraneaus said:

"With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition"

more than primacy? something like ..infallibility? if apostolic tradition was maintained by Rome in the early church, why not today?

what do you think.

also check out this article: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num12.htm

I think it's strange that our Churches used to be united and they have such differing opinions on scripture. I'm sure it's cultural.

Forgive me...

MamaZ · Sep 19, 2008

The NT is not fashioned after the OT.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA said:
They don't shake hands in the East... the kiss of peace is what you are looking for.

Forgive me...

Where did that tradition start? With the EO or the RCs?
I decided to look up the word "kiss" and not really sure if that is what is meant. I could be wrong.

Luke 22:48 The yet Jesus said to him "Judas! to fondness/kiss/filhmati <5370> the Son of the Man thou are giving up"?

Romans 16:16 Greet ye! one another in fondness/kiss/filhmati <5370> holy. Are greeting ye the out-calleds of the Christ.

Textus Rec.) Romans 16:16 aspasasqe allhlouV en filhmati agiw aspazontai umaV ai ekklhsiai tou cristou

5370. philema fil'-ay-mah from 5368; a kiss:--kiss. [Used in Luke 7:45, 22:48, Romans, Corin and Thess]
5368. phileo fil-eh'-o from 5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment,
5371. Philemon fil-ay'-mone from 5368; friendly; Philemon, a Christian:--Philemon.

OrthodoxyUSA · Sep 19, 2008

Rhamiel said:
Ok, if you do not want to use the term Vicar, then we do not have to, and we do not have to talk about Jesus calling Peter to feed His sheep, but what about Isaiah22:20-24 20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat [a] of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshootsall its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars

this seems to put more importance on the role of hainding over keys, pluss notice the same language is used when it comes to binding

It refers to Christ being given authority by The Father.

Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Forgive me...

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

MamaZ said:
The NT is not fashioned after the OT.

How do you mean?
Ya ever look at the similarity of Reve 19:4 and Ezra 3?

Reve 19:4 And fall the elders, the twenty four, and the four living-ones, and worship to the God, to the One sitting upon the throne saying: "amen allelouia".

Ezra 3:12 And many ones from the Priests and the Levites, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders, who saw the House, the former, in laying foundation of this the House in eyes of them ones lamenting in voice loud and many ones in shouting in rejoicing to raise up of voice.
13 And the people are not discerning sound of shout of the rejoicing to sound of lamentation of the people, that the people ones shouting shout loud, and the sound was heard unto to from afar.

MamaZ · Sep 19, 2008

Because we no longer have priests that go before God for us and offer up the sin offering. We now have One High priest and all of those in the body are priests and kings.. For the offering of sin has been offered up once for all and we are to take the word of reconciliation and preach the gospel.. Jesus fulfilled the Old and we read in scripture that all things have become new.

Rhamiel · Sep 19, 2008

MamaZ

The NT is not fashioned after the OT.

that is true, but many things in the OT forshadow what happens in the NT

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2008

MamaZ said:
Because we no longer have priests that go before God for us and offer up the sin offering. We now have One High priest and all of those in the body are priests and kings.. For the offering of sin has been offered up once for all and we are to take the word of reconciliation and preach the gospel.. Jesus fulfilled the Old and we read in scripture that all things have become new.

I agree.......

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New/kainhn <2537>,' He hath made Old/pepalaiwken <3822> the First/prwthn <4413>. The yet being aged/palaioumenon <3822> and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a heaven, New/kainon <2537> and a land, New/kainhn <2537>, for the First/prwtoV <4413> heaven and the First/prwth <4413> land pass away, and the sea not is still.

MoNiCa4316 · Sep 19, 2008

I found one other interesting quote...

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3). (Iraneaus)

OrthodoxyUSA said:
I think it's strange that our Churches used to be united and they have such differing opinions on scripture. I'm sure it's cultural.

Forgive me...

yes it is strange..

MamaZ said:
The NT is not fashioned after the OT.

but the OT is a 'prophesy'.. a 'shadow' of the things to come

OrthodoxyUSA said:
It refers to Christ being given authority by The Father.

Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Forgive me...

but then why is the role much more like a prime minister than a son? Jesus is the Son of God and the King, not lower.

MamaZ said:
Because we no longer have priests that go before God for us and offer up the sin offering. We now have One High priest and all of those in the body are priests and kings.. For the offering of sin has been offered up once for all and we are to take the word of reconciliation and preach the gospel.. Jesus fulfilled the Old and we read in scripture that all things have become new.

well I agree

btw about priests... our priests (Catholic and Orthodox) have a different function than the OT priests.. they don't go to God for us, but they bring to us His Body and Blood..which is changed by the Holy Spirit from the bread and wine.

Peter Is Not The Rock!

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