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The Apostles would not teach two different traditions. Like one to the Jews and one to the Gentiles? No way, already that was solved Acts 15.
John and the Synoptics weave together, if done right, perfectly without any loose ends.
The Apostles would not teach two different traditions.
John and the Synoptics weave together, if done right, perfectly without any loose ends.
First of all, some things need to be cleared up here. During this era of the early Church, Rome was still the capital of the empire, and indeed the pre-eminent Church in the empire.
Antioch's influence extended from Syria to Mesopotamia, Persia and even India, and Alexandria's influence was over Africa (excepting North Africa, which was traditionally Roman),
...and Alexandria also had tremendous theological influence.
Jerusalem was very troubled at the time (several Jewish revolts), and thus it's geographical influence wasn't very great,
...and Constantinople of course didn't exist yet.
Many of the letters you use as 'proof' of the Papacy, were written by churches which were indeed under Roman influence at the time (Greece and Asia Minor, though considered Eastern today, were under Rome's influence at the time). This still doesn't prove a universal jurisdiction.
Also, Rome for a long time indeed was an 'authority' - not because of a unique office, but because of the importance of the city, and the succession of Saintly Popes (it's no coincidence that almost all the early Popes were Saints, and almost none of the Popes leading up to the Schism were).
There's still no proof that this authority and reputation couldn't expire, nor that Rome couldn't fall into heresy.
If Anicetus was teaching false Tradition would St. Ignatius who was a diciple of St. John praise him in his letter to the Trallians?
Instead he said that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry.
For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as ... Anicetus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69
I believe Thekla may be correct in her Post.
None of the early sources say that Rome held primacy because it was the capital of the Empire. While this is clearly why St. Peter (along with St. Paul) based himself in Rome (where "all roads led" ...making the management of a universal Covenant far easier), the church of Rome (like all other city-churches) was an illegal, underground society that was being persecuted by the Roman government. So, early Roman primacy did not come from its associations with the imperial capital, but from its Petrine succession. This is what all the early fathers say.
It was only the 5th Century Byzantines (who were trying to promote their "one-Church, one Empire" agenda and create a political theocracy) who first made the claim that Rome held primacy because it was the original capital of the Empire -- the implication being that Constantinople should hold a similar primacy, because it was the "New Rome." But, even at the time, this silly and untenable argument was rejected by Rome and the other Apostolic patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch, along with the rest of the Church.
Alexandria's regional jurisdiction ended at the border between Roman Africa and Libya, as even canon 6 of the Council of Nicaea says. Alexandria did not oversee N. Africa. Rather, Carthage was pat of the patriarchate of Rome.
And, as canon 6 of Nicaea also tells us, the regional authority of Alexandria and Antioch was recognized by the Church BECAUSE the Bishop of Rome recognized the regional authority of these patriarchs in these places.
In other words, Alexandria and Antioch were under the ultimate jurisdiction of Rome, and the only reason they were regional patriarchates at all was because of their ties of Petrine discipleship to Petrine Rome. As Pope Damasus I in 382 says, responding to the Council of Constantinople I, and rejecting the church of Constantinople's first aborted attempted to make itself the primate in the East in place of Alexandria (the Traditional and Apostolic Eastern primate):
"Although all the Catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter ...(Matt 16:18-19)." In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name "Christians" was first applied, as to a new people." (Decree of Damasus # 3, 382 A.D.)
So, it was by St. Peter's design that Alexandria manage East Africa (along with Arabia and part of India), and that Antioch manage Asia, down into Mesopotamia and India; but they only did this as "satellites" of the Petrine authority of Rome, which remained the final court of appeal for the universal Church. This is undeniable for anyone who consults the historical record.
Sorry but this is also historically incorrect. Jerusalem did not become a patriarchate until the council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Before that time, it was not even a metropolitanate, but was under the metropolitan of Caesarea.
When the city of Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70, the original church of Jerusalem was reduced to a tiny community of Jewish Christians; and after the second Jewish revolt in A.D. 130, when the Emperor Hadrian re-named the city "Aelia Capitolina" and forbad any Jew (or even Jewish Christian) from entering the city, the tiny church of Jerusalem became an entirely Gentile church, with no connection to the original Jewish church at all. It was only during the reign of Constantine that Jerusalem was given some importance again; and this was only because Constantine and his mother St. Helena began to built beautiful basilicas over the traditional Christian holy sites, and this inspired a new wave of pilgrimate to Jerusalem (or "Aelia," as it was called). Indeed, canon 7 of the council of Nicaea clearly says that the bishop of Aelia (Jerusalem) should be honored, but should be denied the rights of a metropolitan. Rather, Jerusalem remained under the authority of Caesara, and this continued to be the case under St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who had to stand trial before the (Arian) metropolitan of Caesarea when he was falsely accused by his Arian enemies, and thereafter deposed. It was Bishop Juvernal of Jerusalem (a scheming politician) who called in a lot of political favors at the Council of Chalcedon (451) and succeeded in getting the council to recognize Jerusalem's independence from the patriarchate of Antioch, and have it declared a patriarchate in its own right. Jerusalem was not a patriarchate (or even a metropolitanate) before this time. Rather, the three Apostolic patriarchates were Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch - in THAT order of primacy. The other two patriarchates of Constantinople and Jerusalem are not Apostolic, and were later inventions of the Byzantine imperial court. Most modern Eastern Orthodox seem to be unaware of this historical reality.
That depends on which Eastern Orthodox you ask. LOL. In the 7th Century, the Byzantines adopted the historical fairy tale that the church of Byzantium (later "Constantinople") was established by the Apostle Andrew, and was thus an Apostolic church because of that, supposedly drawing its authority from that Apostle. The reality, however, is that, before Constantine adopted and re-named the city after himself, Byzantium was a minor church that was answerable to the metropolitan of Herculea in Thrace. The first recorded bishop of Byzantium was Metrophanes I (306-314) or (315-327). All of the supposedly earlier bishops popularized by medieval Byzantine succession lists (stretching back to St. Andrew) are completely apocryphal.
Well...be careful not to fall into the trap of the Dontatist heresy (the belief that ecclesial authority is based on personal sanctity ...which is an error condemned repeatedly by the early Church).
You also need to appreciate historical reality, in that the Pope that Photius initially rebelled against, SAINT Nicholas I (858-67), is recognized as a saint in both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, as is Pope St. Stephen V [VI] (885-91), who also opposed Photius ...as is St. Ignatius of Constantinople, who was the patriarch that Photius unlawfully deposed to usurp his bishopric, which started the whole controversy (Photius attacking the Filioque was merely an attempt to distract from his unlawful appointment at Patriarch in St. Ignatius' place). This period of course set the stage for the Schism, which would take place in 1054, a century later. And, speaking of 1054, the Pope at the time of the actual Schism was SAINT Leo IX (1049-54).
Plus, you must not overlook the fact that NONE of the Patriarchs of Constantinople during a century before OR after the Schism were saints. ...Michael Cerularius was certainty no saint.
The proof comes from Jesus Christ and from the consistent testimony of the fathers (INCLUDING the Eastern fathers) who associated the promise of Matt 16:18-19 with the See of Rome. Also, if Rome is in heresy, by what authority do you declare it to be so? It's a fair question.
God's Peace,
NewMan
Incidentally, this has absolutely nothing to do with liturgy.
Again, look closely at his language Here's Polycrates arguing against Victor, per M Aurelius:
It is we who are faithful to tradition, without adding anything to it, without giving up anything (shades of Revelation's ending). It is in Asia that these great foundation men repose, who will arise on the day of the Lords appearing, in that day when He shall come from heaven with glory to raise all the saints: Philip, he who was one of the twelve apostles, who is buried at Hierapolis, also his two daughters who grow old in virginity, not to speak of another daughter who observed during her life the rule of the Holy Spirit, and who reposes at Ephesus; then John, he whose head reclined on the bosom of the Lord, who was pontiff carrying thepetalon, and martyr, and doctor, who also is interred at Ephesus; then Polycarpus, he who was bishop and martyr at Smyrna; then Thraseas, at once bishop and martyr of Eumenia, who is buried at Smyrna. Why speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who is buried at Laodicea, of the blessed Papirius, and of Melito, the holy eunuch, who observed in everything the rule of the Holy Spirit, and rests at Sardis, waiting the heavenly call which shall make him rise among the dead? All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith.
Polycarp followed apostolic tradition & Anicetus rejected apostolic tradition.They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.
Polycarp followed apostolic tradition & Anicetus rejected apostolic tradition.
Just like there was a Judas in the apostles, there was one in the Roman bishopric.
Again, where's the proof? You still haven't shown a thing all thread.
There's still no proof of a 'special' office that passed only to Rome.
However Rome still was considered a 'pre-eminent' church (along with Antioch and Alexandria) because of their history -
Petrine Primacy is based on a bunch of misquoted ECFs...
Again, where's the proof? Is this an ongoing thing with you? You said you'd provide proof over and over, yet you've provided no such thing.
Tomorrow I'll start a new thread about this. As for why Rome is in heresy, they went into schism, and deviated from the faith. For example, Canon 7 of the Council of Ephesus...
"When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different (ἑτέρανFaith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa."
NewMan99 said:CJ,
Regarding 491. I cannot promise I will respond much more in this thread. It is still beyond obvious to me that you continue to lack a fundamental grasp of what I have even said or what it is that I have set out to provide evidence for. Responding to your comments has thus far proven to be fruitless at best and frustrating to the extreme. So rather than get angry at what I perceive to be your continued obfuscations and obstinate refusal to engage in what I am actually saying, it is best if I just let you have the last word. I care too much for you as a person to fall into the trap of losing my patience (even more than I already have) and responding less than charitably than I should.
That's your argument? Rather than really deal in any substantive way with the implications of words/actions of Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Dionysius, you just ignore/dismiss them and claim I haven't shown a thing? Fine. As I said several times, there will be people for whom no amount of evidence will suffice.
Except, of course, for the words/actions of the five ECFs I called to the witness stand. If the words/actions of these men (who were not just average Joe laypeople, btw) don't illustrate that Rome was pre-eminent in AUTHORITY and not just honor, then the texts are either spurious or those men were liars.
It has EVERYTHING to do with liturgy. They were arguing about which date the Feast of the Lord's Ascension should be celebrated on the liturgical calendar. They were not disputing theological issues.
Carefully read the first and last sentence. The first sentence refers to a "tradition". So what "tradition" is this? The last sentence gives the answer:
"All these men celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day, according to the Gospel, without innovation of any kind, following the rule of the faith."
The "tradition" that is the source of the controversy is when the Feast Day is supposed to fall on the LITURGICAL CALENDAR. And here there were two different liturgical traditions, each of them equally apostolic and each of them equally valid. They were not debating IF the Lord arose or what theological implications followed from the Resurrection. They were only debating IF the universal Church should celebrate the Feast Day on the same date.
Standard Operating Procedure. Introduce new redefinable terms to swamp the issue.You say this is only a liturgical issue.
Standard Operating Procedure. Introduce new redefinable terms to swamp the issue.
Liturgy is in the domain of faith and we all know who is infallable on faith & morals, not the apostles w/their tradition as delivered by Polycarp, but Pope Anicetus who preferred convenience & his own traditions.
Finally, it seems that as we have no extant sources (at least presently brought to the conversation) which describe the practice re: this matter among the other Apostles, nor is there evidence that the Sunday observance of Pascha was solely a Roman practice, it is not within the breadth of the present evidence to claim Roman practice as the (sole) basis of the Sunday Pascha.
If Anicetus was teaching false Tradition would St. Ignatius who was a diciple of St. John praise him in his letter to the Trallians?
Instead he said that Anicetus fulfilled a pure and blameless ministry.
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