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Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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Trento

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Opinions - opinions and more opinions -----Let's take a look at what modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.

Taken from THE PRIMACY OF PETER : Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church edited by John Meyendorff (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992

1) There is no systematic doctrine of Church government in the Orthodox Church and therefore it is not enough to refute Universal Primacy
"As we study the problem of primacy in general, and especially the primacy of Rome, we must not be ruled by polemical motives: the problem is to be solved to satisfy ourselves and Orthodox theology. The solution of the problem is urgent, since Orthodox theology has not yet built up any systematic doctrine on Church government. And although we have a doctrine concerning Ecumenical Councils as organs of government in the Church, we shall see presently that our doctrine is not enough to refute the Catholic doctrine of primacy." (Afanassieff, page 92)
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(2) The earliest Fathers recognized the primacy of Rome (or what might be called "priority") and Orthodox scholars generally concede this
on ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (c. 96 AD)
"Let us turn to the facts. We know that the Church of Rome took over the position of 'church-with-priority' at the end of the first century. That was about the time at which her star ascended into the firmament of history in its brightest splendor...Even as early as the Epistle to the Romans, Rome seems to have stood out among all the churches as very important. Paul bears witness that the faith of the Romans was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Rom 1:8)....we have a document which gives us our earliest reliable evidence that the Church of Rome stood in an exceptional position of authority in this period. This is the epistle of Clement of Rome...We know that Clement was 'president' of the Roman Church...." (page 124)
"The epistle is couched in very measured terms, in the form of an exhortation; but at the same time it clearly shows that the Church of Rome was aware of the decisive weight, in the Church of Corinth's eyes, that must attach to its witness about the events in Corinth. So the Church of Rome, at the end of the first century, exhibits a marked sense of its own priority, in point of witness about events in other churches. Note also that the Roman Church did not feel obliged to make a case, however argued, to justify its authoritative pronouncements on what we should now call the internal concerns of other churches. There is nothing said about the grounds of this priority....Apparently Rome had no doubt that its priority would be accepted without argument." (page 125-126)
on ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 AD)
"We find the first direct evidence about the priority of the Roman Church in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Speaking of the Church of Rome, Ignatius uses the phrase 'which presides' in two passages.... The Roman Church 'presides' in love, that is, in the concord based on love between all the local churches. The term 'which presides' [Greek given] needs no discussion; used in the masculine it means the bishop, for he, as head of the local church, sits in the 'first place' at the eucharistic assembly, that is, in the central seat. He is truly the president of his church...[Ignatius] pictured the local churches grouped, as it were, in a eucharistic assembly, with every church in its special place, and the church of Rome in the chair, sitting in the 'first place.' So, says Ignatius, the Church of Rome indeed has the priority in the whole company of churches united by concord....In his period no other church laid claim to the role, which belonged to the Church of Rome." (page 126-127)
on ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
"We shall find other evidence about the Roman position in Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons. His -Adversus Heareses- contains a famous passage, which has provoked a great many arguments. This is unquestionably the most important document of all with regard to the position of the Roman Chuch....Irenaeus calls on Apostolic Tradition to correct the mistaken heretics. This Tradition, he says, is guarded in every local church by the succession of bishops. It was not in his power to find proof of this in each local church, so he confines himself to one set of bishops only, and enumerates the bishops of Rome, a church in which Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind have been guarded up to his own times....Irenaeus believed he could confine himself to enumerating the succession in a single church, viz. the Roman Church, although he might have enumerated the successive bishops in every local church, as he says himself. He gives his own explanation for choosing the Church of Rome: he saw it as
'the very great and the very ancient church, known to all, which the two most glorious apostles Peter and Paul founded and constituted.'
"...Irenaeus insists that anyone looking for the truth can find it in the Tradition of the Apostles, which every local church has preserved. So we must suppose he thought that the Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind were preserved in the Roman Church more fully than in others, or, at least, in a more manifest way. Later, Irenaeus points to this Church -- Rome -- as the one to which all other churches must -convenire-....I think a likelier sense of -convenire- here is 'address oneself to,' 'turn to,' 'have recourse to.' The sense of the remark would then be: every local church should have recourse to the Church of Rome....This passage in Irenaeus [from Against Heresies 3:4:1] illuminates the meaning of his remarks about the Church of Rome: if there are disputes in a local church, that church should have recourse to the Roman Church, for there is contained the Tradition which is preserved by all the churches."
"Rome's vocation [in the "pre-Nicene period"] consisted in playing the part of arbiter, settling contentious issues by witnessing to the truth or falsity of whatever doctrine was put before them. Rome was truly the center where all converged if they wanted their doctrine to be accepted by the conscience of the Church. They could not count upon success except on one condition -- that the Church of Rome had received their doctrine -- and refusal from Rome predetermined the attitude the other churches would adopt. There are numerous cases of this recourse to Rome...." (page 128f, 133)
on ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)
"...according to his doctrine there should have really been one single bishop at the head of the Universal Church....According to Cyprian, every bishop occupies Peter's throne (the Bishop of Rome among others) but the See of Peter is Peter's throne -par excellence-. The Bishop of Rome is the direct heir of Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly, and sometimes only by the mediation of Rome. Hence Cyprian's insistence that the Church of Rome is the root and matrix of the Catholic Church [Ecclesiae catholicae matricem et radicem]. The subject is treated in so many of Cyprian's passages that there is no doubt: to him, the See of Rome was -ecclesia principalis unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est- [the Principal Church from which the unity of the priesthood/episcopacy has its rise]." (page 98-99)
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(3) There is no doubt that an objective study of the evidence yields the conclusion that the Catholic Church believed in Universal Primacy, had an Ecumenical center of unity and agreement in Rome, and the unanimous testimony of the Fathers and Councils demonstrates this -- and to deny this is based purely on "anti-Roman prejudice"
"Finally we come to the highest and ultimate form of primacy: universal primacy. An age-long anti-Roman prejudice has led some Orthodox canonists simply to deny the existence of such primacy in the past or the need for it in the present. But an objective study of the canonical tradition cannot fail to establish beyond any doubt that, along with local 'centers of agreement' or primacies, the Church has also known a universal primacy....
"It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and the Judaeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome -- 'presiding in agape,' according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr. Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all the testimonies of the Fathers and the Councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement.
"It is only for the sake of biased polemics that one can ignore these testimonies, their consensus and significance. It has happened, however, that if Roman historians and theologians have always interpreted this evidence in juridical terms, thus falsifying its real meaning, their Orthodox opponents have systematically belittled the evidence itself. Orthodox theology is still awaiting a truly Orthodox evaluation of universal primacy in the first millennium of church history -- an evaluation free from polemical or apologetic exaggerations." (Schmemann, page 163-164)
 

CaliforniaJosiah

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modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.


Read this from the Orthodox Father...




And, no, the EO does not agree with the 1870 Catholic Denomination DOGMA of the Infalliblity of the Roman Pontiff.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.
 
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Yarddog

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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Trento
modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.
I believe that is the Orthodox view Josiah.
 
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Standing Up

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It is interesting to read people's opinions, especially when they coincide with Scripture.

The OP asserts that the rock in 'upon this rock I will build My church' is Peter's confession of faith. Most Protestants believe this as well. So how nice to see Peter himself confirm this.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

...

1 Peter 2:4-6 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For {this} is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER {stone,} AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

There's the confession of faith and assertion we too are living stones begin built up. As well, Paul in other scipture confirms this, saying we are built upon the foundation of OT prophets and NT apostles with Christ as the cornerstone. Eph 2:20.
 
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Rhamiel

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oh cool, so now the Bishop of New York is the most important Bishop? lol
the EO seem to be overly fixated on the Political
they claim that at the council of Florance that the Emperor was the one who pushed for the reconciliation, all I have to say is, so? I mean there was a room full of Bishops, why would they listen to the Emperor?
Even today, listen to the praise for Vladimir Putin from many of the Russian Orthodox, it is unsettling
 
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Mikeb85

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From the Canons of the Council of Chalcedon (considered Ecumenical by both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church):


From the Canons of a Council considered ecumenical by both our churches, it says that Rome was given Primacy because of her political situation, and that Constantinople was Rome's equal.
 
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Mikeb85

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Actually, generally speaking, the Patriarch of Moscow is seen as the most important Orthodox Bishop, since the Russian church is by far the largest Church. The most important bishop is the one with the most responsibility, not one who seeks to replace kings and seeks power... St. John Chrysostom: "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies."

As for Vladimir Putin, he's done great things for his country, and is a very popular leader among all Russians...
 
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boswd

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Oh wow that's interesting, I would have thought the Greek Orthodox would be the largest but I guess that makes sense due to the size of Russia and Russian immagrants throughout the world.

I grew up in a small town in upstate NY and there is a Russian Orthodox in a town of Herkimer, NY which I always thought was odd spot for it especially in an area where Luthern, Methodist and Catholic are by far the dominant Christian faiths. Beatiful Church by the way.

 
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Trento

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Canon 28, Chalcedon was struck from the Council documents. Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople writes to Pope Leo, apologizing and explaining how the canon came to be, saying ...
As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. -- Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).
So, the matter was settled; and, for the next 6 centuries, Eastern churches speak of only 27 canons of Chalcedon -- the 28th Canon being rendered null and void ." This is supported by the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in 551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) -- all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon.
 
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Mikeb85

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Lets face it everyone turns a blind eye to those in power as long as they push the agenda you want........

Such as our Western leaders who, under the false pretense of protecting a people from genocide, attacked a sovereign nation and created an extremist Islamic state in Europe (Kosovo). Or whom supported the illegal revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, or who continue to support Turkey and refuse to recognize the genocide against Armenians, and the continued suppression of the Church... Who funnelled illegal arms to Islamists in Afghanistan (before 9/11 anyway), Chechnya, and is in bed with the Saudis, Kuwaitis, etc... Controlled Blunders Will Create the Islamic Empire And of course, Western leaders supported the criminal oligarchs who devasted the Russian economy after it's market reforms in the 1990's, and continues to attempt to undermine Russia, even arming rogue states. John Laughland: The Chechens' American friends | World news | The Guardian

In fact, as we speak, Georgia is being re-armed by the US, and planning round 2 with Russia. RIA Novosti - Russia - Medvedev says NATO exercises in Georgia 'open provocation' - 2 Turning a blind eye indeed...
 
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Mikeb85

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NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Rhamiel

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russia is trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire, the war with Georgia was used to take over oil and gas pipe lines, the "illegal" revolutions in the Ukraine and Georgia was so that they could get out from under the thumb of Russia, we are getting off topic though, I am sorry for encouraging getting off topic,
I think it is funny that a response to the horrors of russia is to point out the horrors of western nations, no one is acting like western nations are good, though I think some of your charges are trumped up
 
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Mikeb85

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Yes, that's why the current Ukrainian President, supported by the West, happens to be probably the least popular leader of any world power, has been stripped of most of his power by parliament, and according to a recent poll in the Ukraine, is the worst Ukrainian President of all-time. RIA Novosti - World - Ukrainians rate Yushchenko country's worst president - poll

And yes, Georgia is planning another war with Russia. Whether you believe me or not, it will happen... RIA Novosti - Russia - Medvedev says NATO exercises in Georgia 'open provocation' - 2
 
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