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FSTDT

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You know, when people talk about sexual morality, the word "perversion" comes up almost 100% of the time. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about:
The word "perversion" is a pretty nasty word, isn't it? Apparently, it has moral implications such that something being a perversion makes it morally wrong. Simple, right?

Nah, not at all simple, because no one has yet taken the time to define what a perversion really is, or what makes it morally wrong. The word "perversion" is so ambiguous that it doesn't actually describe anything at all, yet its used all the time to describe the wrongness of certain behaviors.

We have to understand that in order to talk about "perversion" in any morally meaningful sense, we have to satisfy at least two criteria: first, we need to state exactly what we mean by the word; and second, we have to be sure that the implications of the word actually form a rational basis for our moral decisions. If we define a perversion as a sexual practice which deviates from the norm, then we've satisfy the first condition, but not the second, because we all know that we can't derive any "ought" from an "is" (so that we can't say that something being a "norm" implies that is the way things ought to be). But if we talk about perversion in the way it negatively affects people, then we're no longer talking about perversion anymore, but we've shifted the focus over to negative consequences without actually defining perversion in the first place, so we've satisfied the second condition but not the first. I don't believe that I've ever seen perversion defined in a way that satisfies both conditions at the same time, and I'm not sure if it is even possible in principle.

Lets take the word "perversion" itself, and lets ask "what does the word 'perversion' mean, what criteria must a behavior meet to be considered 'perverted'". I can't find the word in any of my philosophy dictionaries, so please don't mind that I'm using mundane online dictionaries:
The Dictionary.com definitions are useless because they use words like "aberrant", "abnormal", and "deviant" without providing any indication as to what criteria distinguish "deviant" behavior from "non-deviant" behavior. The Wikipedia article links to a page on paraphilia, which is a little more specific, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone use the word perversion in quite the way paraphilia is used in the DSM-IV.

The word perversion hardly has a definition at all, its a rather abstract term that is defined by intuition at best. However, intuition rarely reveals the truth about any moral truths, because intuition isn't subject to the rules of logical inference, and no two people have the same intuitions; this means when two people have contradictory ideas based on the same intuition, theres no way to determine which intuition is the "correct" one.

Let me show the problem of intuition by creating a list of certain fetishes, and putting them in the order of "most perverted" to "least perverted":
Code:
Most perverted:		Scatological fetishes
			Furries
			Exhibitionism
			Sadomasochism
			Being aroused by sex involving more than two people
			Sex without committment (e.g. swinger / playboy lifestyles, or the
				"friends with benefits" we sometimes hear about)
			Homosexuality
			Sex outside of wedlock
			Being aroused by lingerie
			Being aroused by "attractive" hair (e.g. think Anna Kournikova or some peoples
				fixation on redheads / blondes / certain hair styles)
Least Perverted:	Sex between consenting couples
Although it wasn't hard to put that list together, the list was put together by intuition alone, and in fact there is no criteria at all used to guage which behaviors are perversions, much less which behaviors are more or less perverted than others. So, the list means nothing, and we can't provide rational reasons to distinguish perversions from non-perversions.


Another problem with "perversion" is the nature of morality itself: almost always, something being morally wrong has to do with its actual consequences or the way it affects people. The interesting question is, on what basis is perversion morally wrong; because as far as my understanding of perversion goes, many behaviors are called perverted even when they don't harm any people at all (homosexuality, sadomaschism, foot fetishes, hardcore pornography, etc.). Those kinds of things that people call perversions harm people neither directly nor indirectly*, so on what basis are they morally wrong at all?

* I understand some people have objections to pornography on the basis that it leads to certain kinds of abuse, but their is very little evidence for that. At worst, porn could lead to an addiction, but for now I think its safe to say that the vast vast majority of porn consumers are perfectly harmless.

Of course, you might have an automatic response to me, "FSTDT, pedophiles are perverts, and they are obviously being immoral". Of course, I agree, but what makes them immoral is not the fact that they have a perverted state of mind, but has a lot to do with sexually manipulating and exploiting children. Its the consequences of the behavior itself that makes pedophilia immoral, thats all that matters. Similarly, perversions like voyeurism are wrong because they violate people's right to privacy and autonomy.

So now, back to the mundane, harmless perversions like homosexuality and fetishes: lets say that we agreed that these things are perversions (however that word is defined). On what basis can we say that the perversion is morally wrong, or go even further to say that we should regulate these behaviors? I'd LOVE to see an answer to that question, but I don't think there is one. These kinds of perversions just refer to states of mind outside the culturally accepted norms, but the states of mind actually don't have any moral consequence; and I would say that trying to regulate the inconsequential states of mind quite literally embodies the Orwellian concept of "thoughtcrime". I don't know about you, but I find the idea of criminalizing states of mind to be frightening.


Because the word "perversion" is so ambiguous, the criteria for distinguishing between perversions and non-perversions is undefined, and no one has been able to provide an explanation for why something being a perversion is morally wrong (go ahead, take a stab at the question "what makes something perverted"), I'm not convinced the word "perversion" has any meaningful place in moral discussions at all. When someone says a behavior is perverted, it doesn't mean anything.

Its really surprising that for all the years people have been using the word "perversion", it has never been defined. The word "perversion" is not moral terminology, and in fact I think its inadvertantly used as a way to bypass the rigors of moral scrutiny altogether; because after all, if you can dismiss an act as a perversion, then you don't have to provide any moral reasons yourself to base your objections. In this way, talking about sexual perversions as if it were a moral term is positively anti-moral, because it destroys the capacity for any moral discourse that can actually provide reasons for the rightness and wrongness of actions.

As far as I'm concerned, the word "perversion" means nothing, and it cannot be used to weight the actual rightness or wrongness of actions. Anyone who says an action is wrong because they've labeled it a perversion is saying nothing at all, they aren't making a moral statement of any kind.

This isn't to say that theres no constraint on people's behaviors, there certainly ARE good reasons to constrain a lot of actions. However, labeling a behavior a perversion doesn't provide one of those good reasons, its morally irrelevant.


I have filled my "challenge our moral intuitions" quota for the day, and I hope you have enjoyed my short discussion
 

k

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What we are talking about is a language-game whereby the goal is to use the word "perversion" to demonize the gay community. The other day I was listening to radio-talk and the topic was the book "King and King." People were calling in all upset and saying, "Are we now going to teach our children pedophilia and beastiality through these sick books?"

That word "perversion" is used to make it easier to compare gay people to pedophiles, etc.

So, I completely agree, some have perverted the use of "pervert."
 
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knightlight72

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I read the original post, and I am surprised at the conclusion. Biologically, there is a male and female. The functions of the gender role seems clear.


I think people are trying to say that a perversion is something that is bad, and since you feel homosexuality is good, then it cannot fit the idea of perversion. While I understand the negative association of the term, I think the OP did describe that homosexuality is not the intended norm of gender roles.

I would have to say the posts above are trying to avoid the association based on opinion, and not by definition.
 
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sister_maynard

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The word is certainly overused. In the example of "Only a pervert would be believe that same-sex marriage is right," it's a complete misuse of the word. The speaker seems to be implying that homosexual intercourse is perversion. However, being an advocate of a cause does not instantly turn that advocate into a practicioner of the action they support.
 
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J

JustJack!

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I read the original post, and I am surprised at the conclusion. Biologically, there is a male and female. The functions of the gender role seems clear.

Realistically, there's more to who we are, and what makes us what we are that what's between our legs.


Homosexuality is a perversion in the sence that it's different. It's an alternative use of our sex, and it's not the norm. But all that doesn't make it wrong. That just makes it different, and to a lot of people, icky.

But being different and icky alone doesn't make it wrong.
 
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knightlight72

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JustJack! said:
Realistically, there's more to who we are, and what makes us what we are that what's between our legs.
But it fits the definition biologically. Perhaps what is being discussed is whether it fits the definition mentally, or spiritually? Is that what is trying to be implied?



I was making the point about the definition. It doesn't make sense to say it doesn't fit the definition because people disagree with as a negative. Word use doesn't mean it no longer fits that definition.
 
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J

JustJack!

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But it fits the definition biologically. Perhaps what is being discussed is whether it fits the definition mentally, or spiritually? Is that what is trying to be implied?

I agree that homosexuality probably does meet the criteria of "perversion".

My point is, and I think the point of the OP, is that beyond a mindless insult, homosexuality being a "perversion" means nothing.
 
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FSTDT

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knightlight72 said:
I read the original post, and I am surprised at the conclusion. Biologically, there is a male and female. The functions of the gender role seems clear.
Are you trying to say that gender roles tell us anything morally?

knighlight72 said:
I think people are trying to say that a perversion is something that is bad, and since you feel homosexuality is good, then it cannot fit the idea of perversion.
No, I'm saying that no one has ever defined the word "perversion", it doesnt mean anything. People use the word as a way of dismissing behaviors as morally without ever explaining their moral relevance.
 
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Ryal Kane

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I guess the definition has definitly changed over time, indicating that it's rather subjective depending on peoples and society's personal opinions.

The word itself has negative connotations but isn't used as much these days. When it is it's usually in reference to someone voyeuristic oggling people.

I suppose one mans perversion is another fetish.

Mine don't even appear on that list.

Well, maybe redheads
 
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sparklecat

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Personally, I always defined a perversion as a sexual preference/practice that was practiced by a minority. That's certainly not any kind of moral statement, naturally.



I don't think you can really say sadomasochism doesn't harm people - that's kind of the point of it.
 
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