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That could be said to those who have the view of Mary having children, too. No idoltry. Just following what the Bible states and what the Church has taught for the past nearly 2000 years and not following some incorrect teaching that was thrown out centuries ago.There is NO reason NOT to expect otherwise...UNLESS you have an
unhealthy view of Mary - or an idolatry of Mary.
2. Does such make Mary holier, purer, than a wife who DID have marital _____ at least ONCE with her spouse within the Sacrament of Marriage in her life?
The core of the issue is this -- there are those who have an unbiblical view that scripture alone is the sole source of doctrine, and there are those who do not..
And IMHO are addressed to the core of the issue.
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. Just following what the Bible states and what the Church has taught for the past nearly 2000 years and not following some incorrect teaching that was thrown out centuries ago.
You're welcome, and sure..
Thank you for your contribution. IF I am permitted, may I ask some questions?
Where does it say Mary had children after Christ?1. Where does the Bible state that Mary had no ____ ever? You stated it did, I'd just like you to quote that verse or those verses. Thank you.
I don't know. Maybe you should ask a Catholic.2. How is not having a teaching an incorrect teaching? Of the 50,000 denominations that some Catholics insist exists, there are only 2 I know of that ANY teaching AT ALL. Both of them are of a very strong, bold, focused, stressed position that Our Lady had no _____ ever. But the other 49,998 have no position on it at all. They don't say She did have ____ and they don't say She didn't have _____. They say NOTHING. They hold to the oldest Tradition in this regard: silence. So, how is having no teaching an incorrect teaching?
You're quite welcome.Thank you very much.
Josiah said:1. Where does the Bible state that Mary had no ____ ever? You stated it did, I'd just like you to quote that verse or those verses. Thank you.
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Where does it say Mary had children after Christ?
Dorothea said:Josiah said:How is not having a teaching an incorrect teaching? Of the 50,000 denominations that some Catholics insist exists, there are only 2 I know of that ANY teaching AT ALL. Both of them are of a very strong, bold, focused, stressed position that Our Lady had no _____ ever. But the other 49,998 have no position on it at all. They don't say She did have ____ and they don't say She didn't have _____. They say NOTHING. They hold to the oldest Tradition in this regard: silence. So, how is having no teaching an incorrect teaching?
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I don't know. Maybe you should ask a Catholic.
Don't you think it unlikely that these are the only likely origins of the view; that there can be no other source for the view except those you find objectionable ?
Then Mary was doing something Holy when she became one flesh with
her husband Joseph and had other children.
Why wouldn't she?
She married Joseph and had other children...and until someone gives
a VALID REASON as to why she "wouldn't" do this...I have no reason
to reject the logical historical record.
Perhaps I am in a bad mood tonight with only 4 1/2 hours sleep the
last couple days...
Perhaps I could have been more graceful in this post.....but I do identify
this as additional corruption in the RCC.
and how can you be so sure?
You have inside informaton?
Luke 1:30-34Yes, if you can so document that Mary vowed to NOT ONCE have _____, I'd be strongly inclined to accept Her promise as the reality fulfilled.
Luke 1:30-34καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄγγελος αὐτῇ· Μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαριάμ· εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ Θεῷ. 31 καὶ ἰδοὺ συλλήψῃ ἐν γαστρὶ καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν. 32 οὗτος ἔσται μέγας καὶ υἱὸς ὑψίστου κληθήσεται, καὶ δώσει αὐτῷ Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τὸν θρόνον Δαυῒδ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ, 33 καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος. 34 εἶπε δὲ Μαριὰμ πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον· Πῶς ἔσται μοι τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω;The context is Mary is betrothed to Joseph. The angel tells her she will conceive a son. Mary asks how this is possible since she is "not knowing a man" (continuous tense).
John
I think that the view was probably Fourth Century and not First Century.
I asked for the Flavius Josephus citation in another thread.
If your statement is a conclusion, then no dialogue or discussion on the matter is of any value; thus, there is no reason to respond.Personally, if it was not so inflammatory to say what I really think.....
As mentioned before, and reiterated by Prodromos's post, Mary's response to the announcement (in Luke) logically shows her personal dedication to chastity.perhaps I should just address the logical history of Mary being married
to Joseph and having other children.
See above; the position that she intended a "normal" marriage is illogical.Any other position in my view is completely illogical and loaded with
bias to force a "lifetime vow" on Mary - some vow she never made.
I can believe that it is possible she rose and is in heaven with Jesus...
but I have my reservations.
I can believe she is the new Eve...but I have my reservations.
I think it is going too far to call it a "lie". This would require an intentional misrepresentation of the facts. It must be admitted that scripture does not conclusively support your position, yet I do not think you are lying.But I can not believe the lie that she did not fulfill her marital duties
to Joseph...that her children besides Jesus were not her offspring...
or that the history hasn't been clear as to the fact that Mary didn't
need to stay a virgin - nor did she need to stay unmarried.
Again, see above; a logical reading of the Lukan passages re: the announcement supports the position of her intention to remain chaste. This is more clear in the Greek (the continuous tense) but is still present in the English translation if one approaches the passages logically.She married Joseph and had other children...and until someone gives
a VALID REASON as to why she "wouldn't" do this...I have no reason
to reject the logical historical record.
No problemPerhaps I am in a bad mood tonight with only 4 1/2 hours sleep the
last couple days...
Perhaps I could have been more graceful in this post.....but I do identify
this as additional corruption in the RCC.
Josiah said:Yes, if you can so document that Mary vowed to NOT ONCE have _____, I'd be strongly inclined to accept Her promise as the reality fulfilled.
Luke 1:30-34καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄγγελος αὐτῇ· Μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαριάμ· εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ Θεῷ. 31 καὶ ἰδοὺ συλλήψῃ ἐν γαστρὶ καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν. 32 οὗτος ἔσται μέγας καὶ υἱὸς ὑψίστου κληθήσεται, καὶ δώσει αὐτῷ Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τὸν θρόνον Δαυῒδ τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ, 33 καὶ βασιλεύσει ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ἰακὼβ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος. 34 εἶπε δὲ Μαριὰμ πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον· Πῶς ἔσται μοι τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω;The context is Mary is betrothed to Joseph. The angel tells her she will conceive a son. Mary asks how this is possible since she is "not knowing a man" (continuous tense).
I also mentioned three non-Christian sources, all intending to discredit Christ, which present Mary as having only one child (Christ).
the Lukan passages re: the announcement supports the position of her intention to remain chaste. This is more clear in the Greek
A contemporary teaching among the Jews was that Moses became abstinent after his ascent to the mountain and his sojourn in the presence of God there; it was not considered at all unusual to remain chaste after experiencing such a direct encounter with the Holy. Mary carried the Holy, Jesus Christ, in her womb; she nursed Him and was in His presence as His mother for most of His earthly life. Even after He began His ministry, she had still, like Moses, already experienced an overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. She also had been indwelt by Christ, our Lord and truly God, now enfleshed.
if Mary had had other children, it would be evidence that her Son was not the Christ.
chastity after being in the presence of God
to claim that Mary had borne more children
2. As a defense of this view of 2 denominations, it is moot if Jesus had no sibs. I disagree with your insistance that every single time one had ____, there MUST be a child resulting from such and recorded as such in the Bible or Catholic Tradition. In fact, I'm of the position that it's possible to have an instence of ____ and not have a child AT ALL! Thus, the whole apologetic is baseless. It's MOOT to your position if Jesus had sibs or not. But again, let's say on topic. The issue here isn't sibs, it's _____. It's not Jesus, it's Mary. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Now, conversely, to the COUNTER argument, siblings via Mary is relevant. Because if it can be documented that Jesus had sibs via Mary, that would reveal the CC and EO to be heretical at this point. But, IMHO, that documentation is lacking. But such IN NO WAY suggests that the CC and EO are correct at this point.
Given the contemporary understanding among the Jews, if Mary had had other children, it would be evidence that her Son was not the Christ.
Of the three non-Christian sources that seek to discredit Christ, the earliest is from the pagan, Celsus. Celsus, who states that Mary had only one child, claims he received his information from the Jews. It would have been more efficient, given the contemporary teachings re: chastity after being in the presence of God, to claim that Mary had borne more children. Instead, Celsus claims that Mary and her only child were turned out of the home of Joseph for adultery, and Mary fled with Jesus to Egypt.
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