Tu Es Petrus
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Can you point to a scripture that you feels proves that Mary WAS born into original sin?
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....The IC is an unnecessary, late, and frankly, unbiblical invention.....
I suppose that means we and the Church should look to the Inspired word of God in the Scriptures to indeed make sure all that the ECFs wrote line up with the Word. Is that a correct assessment?Here's what confuses me, Jack- what in these writings 1. supports IC or 2. Conflicts with my assertions?
Obviously, as an EO Christian, I am/ we are informed by the ECFs. That does not, of course, mean that everything ever written by an ECF is the 'word of God.' What shall we make of Chrysostom's description of Jews, or Origen's Universalism?
Returning to point: The IC is an unnecessary, late, and frankly, unbiblical invention. We acknowledge that She was spotless/righteous- but, as has been said, so were many OT Saints- proving our assertion that Augustinian inherited sin, and more precisely, Calvin's Utter Depravity are utter falsehood.
sorry to butt inVery well said, and I do agree with you on these points. For me though, I have no issue with this viewpoint and the Immaculate Conception both being true.
sorry to butt in
But if Mary was immaculately conceived, did she still have the ability to sin ?
This is a crucial point, I think.
As far as I am aware, yes, and the Catholic Catechism does not say any different.
Here's what confuses me, Jack- what in these writings 1. supports IC or 2. Conflicts with my assertions?
Obviously, as an EO Christian, I am/ we are informed by the ECFs. That does not, of course, mean that everything ever written by an ECF is the 'word of God.' What shall we make of Chrysostom's description of Jews, or Origen's Universalism?
Returning to point: The IC is an unnecessary, late, and frankly, unbiblical invention. We acknowledge that She was spotless/righteous- but, as has been said, so were many OT Saints- proving our assertion that Augustinian inherited sin, and more precisely, Calvin's Utter Depravity are utter falsehood.
Can you point to a scripture that you feels proves that Mary WAS born into original sin?
I suppose that means we and the Church should look to the Inspired word of God in the Scriptures to indeed make sure all that the ECFs wrote line up with the Word. Is that a correct assessment?
John 5:39 "Ye are searchingthe Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".
Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormentingof them into ages of ages is ascending and not they are having Rest day and night
If she still had the ability to sin (excuse me for being dense !) how is her conception "different" or immaculate, and what does this condition of conception confer ?
The Immaculate Conception
490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." 132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". 133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, 134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. 135492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". 136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love". 137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". 138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
The IC is an unnecessary, late, and frankly, unbiblical invention.
Source: http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.aspThe Assumption
The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. Its also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. Thats not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didnt do it under her own power.
The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."
The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:5253: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christs resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:140; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.
sorry to butt in
But if Mary was immaculately conceived, did she still have the ability to sin ?
This is a crucial point, I think.
As far as I am aware, yes, and the Catholic Catechism does not say any different.
I suppose that means we and the Church should look to the Inspired word of God in the Scriptures to indeed make sure all that the ECFs wrote line up with the Word. Is that a correct assessment?
John 5:39 "Ye are searchingthe Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".
Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormentingof them into ages of ages is ascending and not they are having Rest day and night
Considering our belief in Free Will, I'd have to agree: Yes, she had the "ability".
But God's grace in her was so perfected that she was never inclined to do so.
Concupiscence
tt=73
In its widest acceptation, concupiscence is any yearning of the soul for good; in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. To understand how the sensuous and the rational appetite can be opposed, it should be borne in mind that their natural objects are altogether different. The object of the former is the gratification of the senses; the object of the latter is the good of the entire human nature and consists in the subordination of reason to God, its supreme good and ultimate end. But the lower appetite is of itself unrestrained, so as to pursue sensuous gratifications independently of the understanding and without regard to the good of the higher faculties. Hence desires contrary to the real good and order of reason may, and often do, rise in it, previous to the attention of the mind, and once risen, dispose the bodily organs to the pursuit and solicit the will to consent, while they more or less hinder reason from considering their lawfulness or unlawfulness. This is concupiscence in its strict and specific sense. As long, however, as deliberation is not completely impeded, the rational will is able to resist such desires and withhold consent, though it be not capable of crushing the effects they produce in the body, and though its freedom and dominion be to some extent diminished. If, in fact, the will resists, a struggle ensues, the sensuous appetite rebelliously demanding its gratification, reason, on the contrary, clinging to its own spiritual interests and asserting it control. "The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh."
Tis true. Now that I am Orthodox I will have to become non-solo-scripturaThe Bible is not all that Christians have looked to for the Word of God in inspired writings.
Just thought that needed to be said...
490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." 132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". 133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, 134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. 135492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". 136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love". 137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". 138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
if I can get clarification point by point:
490. How does Mary compare to others who were "well pleasing to God" and "righteous"(Noah, the prophets, Moses, etc.) -- are they similarly conceived ?
491.
What does "preserved from original sin" mean ? If this were 'ancestral sin', she would perhaps be immortal ... (we teach she died and was assumed into heaven). If she is "immune" (aside from being immortal in flesh), does her not sinning result from choice (free will) ?
492.
A) Aren't all humans a "unique creation" ?
B)In the OT, those "well pleasing to God" are 'overshadowed' (shekkinah) by the Holy Spirit. In Mary's case, she is the "arxi/first" of Christians who experience "theosis", the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because she conceives the preincarnate Christ, the second person of the Trinity who is undivided (she contains the uncontainable). This cannot happen without her assent and preparation (manner of life and willing dedication to God).
493.
All holy as much as is possible by a human - she does not voluntarily sin/willfully turn from God.
Tis true. Now that I am Orthodox I will have to become non-solo-scriptura......
Why would I prove or attempt to prove that she was born into something that never existed, and is the unfortunate invention of a mistranslation of the Koine by the otherwise stunning mind, Augustine?Can you point to a scripture that you feels proves that Mary WAS born into original sin?
Yes and no-good question, but a tough one to answer categorically.I suppose that means we and the Church should look to the Inspired word of God in the Scriptures to indeed make sure all that the ECFs wrote line up with the Word. Is that a correct assessment?
John 5:39 "Ye are searchingthe Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".
Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormentingof them into ages of ages is ascending and not they are having Rest day and night
Such is the witness of the ECFs, and so seems to indicate certain scriptures.We must understand more than one thing about Mary and her role in bearing Jesus as a baby.
One is that she is forever virgin.
That's a quote. With you thus far...Another is that she is Full of Grace.
Pious tradition- NOT dogma.And that she was assumed into Heaven.
It's funny how little separates us, yet how vital that little bit is:In the studies of these three things and using all that the ECFs can offer to help us understand we will find that these truths lead to Mary and her Immaculate Conception.
So, it is not that I am taking the ECfs writings as inspired, though some obviously are. Nor is it that I am suggesting anything new has been given or created to the deposit of Christianities teahcings. Instead I am saying that the Immaculate Conception is something the only and best conclusion.
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