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RCC "ecumenism:" Just docilicly agree with me on everything, and we'll be in agreement.
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Be more concerned with truth than eccumenism. If you abide in Truth (i.e, Catholic Doctrine) eccumenism will take care of itself.
RCC "ecumenism:" Just docilicly agree with me on everything, and we'll be in agreement.
Yes, I'm sure thats what the Pope tells the EO Patriarchs when he meets with them, "Just docilicly agree with me on everything, and we'll be in agreement."
Sheese
No, it isn't, and shame on you for saying that. You do your Pontiff dishonor with that statement.Well, we don't actually come out and say it, but that's the gist of it...
Yes, I'm sure thats what the Pope tells the EO Patriarchs when he meets with them, "Just docilicly agree with me on everything, and we'll be in agreement."
Sheese
Ever read your Catechism # 87? Ever read where the RCC alone claims that the RCC alone is infallible in matters of faith and morals?....
You said: "RCC "ecumenism:" Just docilicly agree with me on everything, and we'll be in agreement."
anoetos said:Well, we don't actually come out and say it, but that's the gist of it...
And I pointed out that this is not how eccumenical dialogue is conducted. [/quote
]
I spoke of ecumenism, not dialogue. Though I doubt the Pope discusses ANYTHING with the assumption that the RCC is fallible/accountable and correctable/teachable, according to your Catechism # 87, that would make him an unfaithful Catholic - and I doubt that he is.
Now, if you disagree with CCC 87 and with our Catholic friend, and it is your position that in ecumenism, the RCC embraces such with the view that it is teachable/fallible/accountable/corrrectable in mattes of faith and morals, and that my statement is wrong which you quoted, then we can discuss that. But I sincerely doubt you disagree with what I posted. Or what anoetos did.
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Time to unsubscribe before the crash.
Peace
A consequence of the fall was our nature being subject to death and it was this nature which Christ took with Him to the grave then raised to new life through His glorious resurrection. If the nature which Christ took to the grave was pre-fall then nothing was healed.Maybe I'm missing something here, Iakovos, if you could explain a bit. How exactly does the IC conflict with either the Virgin Mary or Christ's "ability" to commit sin? It is my understanding, and of course I could be wrong, that it puts both at a starting point as it were, of Adam and Eve, pre-apple eating.
Consider typology. Adam and Eve were, in a manner, "immaculately conceived", for they were created without sin.
So, the first Adam and Eve were created sinless, but brought sin into the world through their disobedience. The Second Adam and Eve were created sinless, but took away the sin of the world through their obedience.
There is a typological corollary there (assuming one sees Mary as the New Eve, as we do).
Your point is moot since even if Christ is pre lapsus Adam still his human nature is not perfect. Man was created in God's image and the possibility of likeness with free will to fall...thus he fell. Also in order for Christ to "assume" our humanity he had to assume our fallen nature St. Damascus said "whatever is assumed was saved" the fathers are clear that he "assumed" our humanity. To try to be legalistic what is that humanity is silly since humanity was created with the possibility to sin. What is different with Christ is that he did not sin OUR OF CHOICE not out of divinized humanity... That would create a dogmatic error and will not make him 100% human. He assumed our nature in all its fulness and condition and He died... Death being the sign of human fall and corruption, and then he was raised, raising thus all humanity with his Glorious Resurection.
The ability comes from knowing the truth about God... it is simple Christ knows the "truth" about the Fahter. He is one person and as a person he was fully God and fully man. The best example in that sense is Theotokos. She lived a life in chastity and refrained from sinning why? Because she "experienced" true life in Christ and extension God... TO put it in plain english (and english is not my mother tongue) Christ who knew the truth about God as He was His father did not "missed the mark" (amartano=to miss the mark). We miss the mark cause I faith in God gets weak... we loose hope and we sin... If you follow that notion you will see it all over the scriptures. The israelites loosing hope while Moses was in the mount and they ...sined. Theotokos, saints, prophets who were revealed the truth were so "close" to God that they saw the Hope they saw that God was there so in that hope for their "immortality" with God they failed to sin... Hope that explains a bit.
what is BVM is seems like BMW...lol... sorry but was not sure no pun intended either
Here's what confuses me, Jack- what in these writings 1. supports IC or 2. Conflicts with my assertions?As an Orthodox brethren I would think ECFs writings would be more part of your understandings.
The Ascension of Isaiah
"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months. And many said, She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied Be it done unto me according to your word [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word. Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husbandfor in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiplyhaving become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eves disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away withthe deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
"If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: Be it done according to your will" (The Passing of the Virgin 16:217 [A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Marys life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).
"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?" (ibid., 2:2:7).
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:2230 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine *ofcourse
"Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
"That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himselfof whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroombut plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head" (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
...
"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sinsfor how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
"Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption" (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens" (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
"And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise" (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
"The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Marys body] rejoices with the Lords chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end" (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).
"But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her" (ibid., 1:8).
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