[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
From your position, absolute truth has not been defined, this is why you ask questions.

I find the misrepresentation of other's positions, for the purposes of an attempted "defeater", to be intellectually bankrupt.

Lets imagine we do somehow fully realize absolute truth,

I do not accept your relgious opinion as truth.

would it make sense for that absolute truth to be falsifiable?

How could I falsify your opinion?

It would not makes sense, right? Because if it was falsifiable, it would not be absolute truth. What I mean by absolute truth, is just the absolute truth about life, whether that being that life is pointless or that life has a deep meaning.

False dichotomy. I do not see the choices limited to "pointless" and "your religious opinion".

"I don’t think anything gives your life joy and meaning. I think your life simply has joy and meaning. The love for my children, the love for my parents and the love for my friends is the end in itself. The meaning is life.” ― Penn Jillette

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
I believe there is only two possible absolute truths about life.

1. The absolute truth is that life is meaningless, therefore, all meaning we give life is pointless and we are free to literally do whatever we want as long as no one else finds out to get us in trouble with man's law. Man's law having no meaning in the end.

2. The absolute truth about life is that life actually has deep meaning that we are currently unable to see because it goes beyond the physical, therefore, all meaning we give life does have a point and that point will be realized some time in the future. Therefore, we should not literally do whatever we want, but rather respect the laws and moralities in our reality and listen to our conscience that is telling us there is right and wrong and that its better to do what is right, rather than what is wrong.

Let me know when you can see and demonstrate this "meaning" that you allude to.

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
If there is no reason for life then searching for truth does not makes sense because in the end the absolute truth would be that there is no reason for life, rendering truth meaningless.

I am not searching for truth, or seeking religion.

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
This is not my "religious opinion", but rather my honest opinion

A distinction without a difference.

and if you do not accept my honest opinion as "true",

I do not accept your religious opinion as true.

then you accept that truth has no meaning as I've explained above.

I accept that your religious opinion has no meaning.

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
Infinite timeless existence,

Which god is that supposed to be? Are we talking about the Christian deity? I didn't see anything about that god that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing. What about that god?

in which you're finite existence on this earth depends upon.

Prove it.

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
As I've said above, its unreasonable to expect absolute truth to be falsifiable. Yes, I understand I'm claiming by beliefs to be true without physical evidence to back my claims, but I'm backing my claims with sound reason

Where?

that makes sense

It makes sense to believe that the Earth hangs motionless in space and the cosmos rotates around it.

Rotating Stars

Davian
May 26, 2014

Australian Astronomical Observatory

and if you refuse to believe sound reason

If you refuse to present some.

that makes sense,

It needs to make sense to others, not just you.

you are then the one who is being unreasonable.

Belief is not a choice. I just do not find this jabber of yours to be compelling.

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
Sound reason that makes sense does not have to be proven. All that is expected is that you believe it until proven otherwise, then when it is proven otherwise you are justified in changing your beliefs.

Asking that someone prove a negative fails as "sound reason".

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
Actually there is sound reason to believe that extraterrestrials do not exist. Have you ever heard of Drake equation or Fermi paradox. According these, we should have come into contact with aliens a long time ago. I don't have personal evidence of aliens, so it would be unreasonable for me to believe in aliens and in fact I've been given sound reason to believe they don't exist. You've been given sound reason to believe God does exist, yet you continue to deny for reasons unknown, other than you're just being unreasonable.

According to a citation on wiki, an estimated 5 to 6 percent of the general population have been abducted by extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth.

What precautions have you taken to prevent this from happening to you and your family? Nothing? Why are you being unreasonable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
Jesus

He's dead, Jim.

I ask again, what is this reason that you allude to?

Davian · Aug 4, 2015

Chriliman said:
Good! Keep thinking, it'll come to you eventually

I already seen your religious opinion. I do not find it compelling.

paulm50 · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong? If you can't determine why it is wrong, wouldn't it be intelligent to take the same reasoning and apply it to your own life to then truly determine if it is right or wrong for you?

Also, if you can't tell me why my reasoning is wrong, why should I ever change my reasoning? Shouldn't I be expected to keep my sound reasoning until I'm proven wrong?

It depends on the the conclusion of your reasoning.

Should we kill, steal, harm bear force witness? No.
Should we punish gays, keep slaves, treat women badly,? Also no. And yet a Christian might reason he should.

Should a Christian believe in Creationism"? No the bible's account has been proven wrong over and over again. Some just look for wriggle room, and in doing so come further away from the "Christian" belief. There's no wriggle room in the bible, it says what is says.

All reasoning makes a Christian god unlikely, can I convince you with the evidence? No because your faith has overtaken your reasoning. And here is the dangerous point with faith. David Koresh, Manson, David Miscavige, and a lot more show how faith can be manipulated. To create wealth and power for themselves and misery for others. Because some lose their power to reason to let faith take over.

paulm50 · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
I'm not saying the meaning lies beyond life, I'm saying the meaning is eternal life, which is not currently comprehensible because we currently live in a finite version of eternal life.

Here is where faith has overtaken reasoning. Your desire to believe that there's something else after you die, is so strong. You have abandoned reasoning.

Just because religious leaders of all faiths promise you a reward for doing what they tell you. A reward you can't prove doesn't exist, can't come back, complain about and theirs to decide if you're good enough. Which is usually linked to how much money you give or if you work for them, even to the point of suicide.

Chriliman · Aug 5, 2015

paulm50 said:
Here is where faith has overtaken reasoning. Your desire to believe that there's something else after you die, is so strong. You have abandoned reasoning.

Just because religious leaders of all faiths promise you a reward for doing what they tell you. A reward you can't prove doesn't exist, can't come back, complain about and theirs to decide if you're good enough. Which is usually linked to how much money you give or if you work for them, even to the point of suicide.

If you have been given personal proof that eternal life is real and that those who don't currently believe this truth are at risk of missing out, what would you do? I think you would do exactly what I'm doing, try to give those who don't believe a sound reason to believe and hope they will believe and pray they will receive eternal life(I don't have control over your eternity, only you make the choices that determine your eternity). I'm sacrificing my time in order to explain why my beliefs are based on sound reason and why you should also believe, but not blindly believe, believe because it makes sense, therefore, I believe what I do with the rest of my time on this finite earth is very important and this only supports my beliefs and my reasoning. So in essence the more you object to what I believe the stronger my beliefs become and the better my argument for my beliefs becomes.

Interesting debate here if you have time to watch/listen:

GrimKingGrim · Aug 5, 2015

We should change our opinions if we're shown to be wrong. But belief can't be changed because it's based on what you deem to be believable.

Davian · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
If you have been given personal proof that eternal life is real

What do you mean "personal proof"? Was this something you imagined?

Chriliman · Aug 5, 2015

Davian said:
What do you mean "personal proof"? Was this something you imagined?

A spiritual experience, while being completely rational, not delusional. A real experience as real as reality can get.

loveofourlord · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
So its reasonable to expect that in time we will find out if there are extraterrestrial aliens within the universe somewhere, right? But if we scan thousands upon thousands of inhabitable planets and find no life at all, what would you begin to think then?

If this happened it would only confirm my belief that God has created us humans for a specific reason and that God wants us to know He exists, therefore, it would become reasonable to believe that in time He would show Himself to all people alive and dead.

On one hand you say "aliens could very well exist because the probabilities are overwhelming" (paraphrasing), yet we see no aliens anywhere, then on the other hand you say "God is unknowable", yet God is possible and if He does exists, its reasonable to believe He will reveal Himself because it makes sense that He would. This is the reasoning that I base my thinking that your agnostic view is unreasonable.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, don't ever think you should be ignored

we can barly see other planets, and barly tell if they MIGHT have life, it's a bit premature to say how many planets. There are planets/moons in our solar system that might have life, but untill we drill down into say Europa or dig down into mars and such we won't know for sure and these are things close enough to test. Short of them coming by to invade/drop in only way we might find life beyond your solar system in our life times, is finding a signal in the right band we can read.

Winken · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman ~ ~ But if we scan thousands upon thousands of inhabitable planets and find no life at all, what would you begin to think then? If this happened it would only confirm my belief that God has created us humans for a specific reason and that God wants us to know He exists, therefore, it would become reasonable to believe that in time He would show Himself to all people alive and dead.

Yep. He did & continues to do.

Davian · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
A spiritual experience, while being completely rational, not delusional.

So you claim.

A real experience as real as reality can get.

I'll assume you imagined it unless you have evidence to the contrary.

jimbohank · Aug 5, 2015

Chriliman said:
Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong? If you can't determine why it is wrong, wouldn't it be intelligent to take the same reasoning and apply it to your own life to then truly determine if it is right or wrong for you?

Also, if you can't tell me why my reasoning is wrong, why should I ever change my reasoning? Shouldn't I be expected to keep my sound reasoning until I'm proven wrong?

From your position, absolute truth has not been defined, this is why you ask questions. Lets imagine we do somehow fully realize absolute truth, would it make sense for that absolute truth to be falsifiable? It would not makes sense, right? Because if it was falsifiable, it would not be absolute truth. What I mean by absolute truth, is just the absolute truth about life, whether that being that life is pointless or that life has a deep meaning.

I believe there is only two possible absolute truths about life.

1. The absolute truth is that life is meaningless, therefore, all meaning we give life is pointless and we are free to literally do whatever we want as long as no one else finds out to get us in trouble with man's law. Man's law having no meaning in the end.

2. The absolute truth about life is that life actually has deep meaning that we are currently unable to see because it goes beyond the physical, therefore, all meaning we give life does have a point and that point will be realized some time in the future. Therefore, we should not literally do whatever we want, but rather respect the laws and moralities in our reality and listen to our conscience that is telling us there is right and wrong and that its better to do what is right, rather than what is wrong.

If there is no reason for life then searching for truth does not makes sense because in the end the absolute truth would be that there is no reason for life, rendering truth meaningless.

This is not my "religious opinion", but rather my honest opinion and if you do not accept my honest opinion as "true", then you accept that truth has no meaning as I've explained above.

Infinite timeless existence, in which you're finite existence on this earth depends upon.

As I've said above, its unreasonable to expect absolute truth to be falsifiable. Yes, I understand I'm claiming by beliefs to be true without physical evidence to back my claims, but I'm backing my claims with sound reason that makes sense and if you refuse to believe sound reason that makes sense, you are then the one who is being unreasonable.

Sound reason that makes sense does not have to be proven. All that is expected is that you believe it until proven otherwise, then when it is proven otherwise you are justified in changing your beliefs.

Actually there is sound reason to believe that extraterrestrials do not exist. Have you ever heard of Drake equation or Fermi paradox. According these, we should have come into contact with aliens a long time ago. I don't have personal evidence of aliens, so it would be unreasonable for me to believe in aliens and in fact I've been given sound reason to believe they don't exist. You've been given sound reason to believe God does exist, yet you continue to deny for reasons unknown, other than you're just being unreasonable.

Jesus

Good! Keep thinking, it'll come to you eventually

Love it!

[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

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