'Penal Substitution', anyone?

jerusalem · Mar 28, 2013

Hedrick - "I see the atonement not as a way to let God forgive us without violating justice, but as the way that God regenerates us through our union with Christ. "

Well said, Sir!

There are problems with the idea of ransom. Nevertheless, these difficulties disappear when we realize that the price for our redemption – Christ’s life – is given to God who alone has the power to deliver us from sin and death.

J

cygnusx1 · Mar 28, 2013

Arcoe said:
I'm trying to follow you here Cygnus. What do you exactly mean by permission?

Go get a dictionary , now back to the thread are you in agreement with PSA or not ?

Arcoe · Mar 28, 2013

cygnusx1 said:
Go get a dictionary , now back to the thread are you in agreement with PSA or not ?

So, God decrees man to sin, but allows, or permits man to decide if he will or not?

cygnusx1 · Mar 28, 2013

Arcoe said:
So, God decrees man to sin, but allows, or permits man to decide if he will or not?

Quit derailing the thread , if you wish to discuss permission of sin start a new thread .

Penal substitutionary atonement ? Are you yes or no?

jerusalem · Mar 28, 2013

Clare - The word is "righteousness":

Jesus was set forth at the cross "to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to declare the righteousness of God "(Rom.3:25 & 26, NKJ). God’s Son was held aloft as God’s righteousness revealed. He is the One of whom Jeremiah prophesied: ‘Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ (Jer.23:6; 33:16, NKJ). God had said, ‘I will raise to David a branch of righteousness’ (Jer.23:5).

The words of Paul speak of justification through faith in the sacrifice of Christ. In the Greek, the passage does not say that Jesus died ‘to demonstrate God’s justice’ (remember: ‘He was deprived of justice,’ Acts 8:33, NIV) ; nor does it speak of God’s punishment. This passage refers to the setting forth of the propitiation of Jesus to demonstrate God’s righteousness: ‘His righteousness’ as exhibited in Jesus at the cross. Paul went on to say that those with faith in the Son of God are ‘justified by His blood’ (Rom.5:9): symbolic of His sacrificial life (‘the life is in the blood,’ Lev.17:11-14). There is no suggestion of penal substitution. If Paul had meant this, he could have made it very plain.

J

jerusalem · Mar 28, 2013

Clare - I will post again later on "propitiation".

(Back later.)

J

jerusalem · Mar 28, 2013

Clare - You quoted "propitiation" in Rom.3:24. Let's look at this more precisely:

He was set forth as the ‘propitiation’ (Rom.3:25, Greek: hilasterion—Gk. Septuagint word for the cover over the ark). This word is translated ‘atonement cover’ in the NIV wherever it is used in the O.T. to describe the covering over the ark, as it is also used in Hebrews 9:5. The word is translated ‘mercy seat’ in the NKJ version of the Bible. From above this cover, described in detail in Exodus 25:17-22, between the cherubim, Yahweh spoke to Moses: ‘Now when Moses went into the tabernacle of meeting to speak with Him, he heard the voice of One speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the Testimony, from between the two cherubim; thus He spoke to him’ (Num.7:89, NKJ). This was the cover that was sprinkled with the blood of atonement just once every year, on the Day of Atonement. It was placed in the innermost part of the sanctuary, behind the veil, in the ‘holy of holies’. Jesus, therefore, sprinkled with His own blood, is conveyed as the One in whom and by whom propitiation for us is made possible. The cover was placed above the receptacle of the ark of the covenant, which contained the tablets of the moral Law given by God to Moses, Aaron’s rod and a golden pot of manna (Heb.9:4). This covenant and the Law of the Ten Commandments is what man has violated. ‘All have sinned [Jew and Gentile alike] and fall short of the glory of God’ (Rom.3:23, NKJ). ‘There is none righteous, no, not one’ (Rom.3:10, NKJ). Man’s unrighteousness is the cause of his separation from God (Isa.59:2, NKJ) and the reason for mankind’s need of a Saviour and Advocate: ‘Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world’ (1 John 2:1-2, NKJ).

Jesus was the Word of God made flesh (John 1v14). He embodied the righteousness of the commandments that were written on the tablets of stone placed within the ark. Aaron’s rod that budded and bore fruit (Num.17:8), symbolic in one sense of resurrection and new life, placed within the ark, foretold of the Holy One who would say of Himself: ‘I am the resurrection and the life‘ (John 11:25). Jesus is the prophesied Branch of righteousness (Jer.23:5; 33:15), with justice and righteousness as His sceptre (Ps.45:6; Heb.1:8). He is also ‘the true bread from heaven,’ as Jesus said: ‘Moses did not give you the bread from heaven [cf. 'manna', Ex.16:31-33], but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world’ (John 6:32-33, NKJ). Jesus was and is the Holy One of God (John 6:69, NIV; Acts 2:27) upon whom the authority of God rested and rests, symbolized by the mercy seat over the ark. ‘All authority has been given Me in heaven and on earth.’ Jesus said (Matt.28:18, NKJ). As prophesied in the book of Isaiah: ’… the government will be upon His shoulder’ (Isa.9:6, NKJ).

In a spiritual sense, therefore, the ark of God foreshadowed and typified Christ. When He gave His life as an atonement, His blood poured down over the true Mercy Seat of God’s Ark—Himself (Rom.3:25), who is the embodiment of the heavenly bread of God’s Word and Law, and who is the resurrection and the life. He did not do away with the Law, but fulfilled the Law through His own truly righteous life that He poured out in death—thus annulling and bringing to an end the Old Covenant with the physical nation of Israel; while, at the same time, ratifying the New Covenant by His blood with spiritual Israel (Rom.7:1-4; Mat.26:28; 2 Cor.3: 4-9).

J

Clare73 · Mar 28, 2013

Arcoe said:
Clare73 said:

jerusalem said:

Would anyone like to throw the first stone?

Click to expand...

Scripture would.
That's not what the word of God reveals in Ro 3:25-26.

For it matters not your human reasoning about it,
all that matters is what the word of God reveals.

And it reveals substitutional penal atonement.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over ee=

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

You need only to present consistent (logically sensible) and Biblical answers to the following questions on Ro 3:25-26 to see God's revelation of penal atonement.

1) What was it (subject) that God "passed over" (verb) the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Click to expand...

Is this all you know what to write?

Don't like what the word of God reveals?

Is it something you cannot address?

jerusalem · Mar 28, 2013

Clare: "Don't like what the word of God reveals?" - No.

I love it! It's too late where I am to respond now.

Until tomorrow,

Blessings!

J

KWCrazy · Mar 28, 2013

Jesus lived a perfect, sin free life, and in Him God was well pleased. In Gethsemene He prayed that God would take the cup from His hand, but if there was no other way that He would abide by God's will. He was accused of crimes which He did not commit and was condemned an innocent man. When He went to the cross, He took upon Himself the sins of the world, just as a sacrificial lamb would carry away the sins of the repentant. When He took on the sins of the world, God could no longer stand to look at Him. Thus He said, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" His death was the ultimate sacrifice for mankind. He died in sin and by the grace of God conqured death and rose again on the third day. The corrupt was brought forth uncorruptable. The penalty for man's sin was paid.

As for forgiveness, the fact that a person is forgiven does not neccessarily absolve them of all consequence. Because David sinned, He lost his son. Because Moses sinned, He could never see the promised land. Saul was God's annointed king, but because of his sin he was struck down. A murderer can repent and still get the death penalty. His sins are forgiven in Heaven, but there are still consequences to actions in this life.

God is just and fair, as the sacrifice of Jesus demonstrates. Any suggestion that He is otherwise simply misrepresents the nature of God. He will forgive sin if you seek forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ, but the wages of sin are stll death and each of us carry that death sentence. It is only through death that we ourselves will be raised incorruptable.

jerusalem · Mar 29, 2013

On the cross, ‘Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God’ (Eph.5:2, NIV).

Please notice - the offering was acceptable. There was no stench of sin. God received His offering. He did not turn away.

Jesus did this for us. This was how Christ presented Himself to God, but this was not how He appeared to the world. We must not take a verse of scripture out of context. This verse: ‘God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God’ (2 Cor.5:21), is a verse which must be viewed in the context of the passage, the whole letter, and Paul’s related comments in his first letter to the Corinthians and other letters. When we do this, we will not take a worldly view of the cross. In the One whom the world judged as sin we have become the righteousness of God.

‘So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer’ (2 Cor.5:16, NIV). How the world sees us and judges us is different to the way God sees us and judges us. There is a worldly point of view, and there is a godly point of view. In the eyes of God, as true believers, we are righteous because Christ is our righteousness. The world looks upon us differently.

It is often stated that God the Father could not bear to look at His Son on the cross and had to turn away, leaving Him derelict. The following verse, taken from the psalm that speaks more than any other of Christ’s sufferings, states the opposite:

"For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; nor has He hidden His face from Him; but when He cried to Him, He heard" (Psalm 22:24, NKJ).

It is as though written with the prophetic knowledge that there would be those who would declare that God withdrew His Spirit and left His Son entirely alone: God did not regard the state of His Son with abhorrence, He did not hide His face from Him, and when His Son cried out He heard. The ‘afflicted one’ is the subject of this psalm, as can be understood in the context of the previous verses.

Jesus constantly emphasized His spiritual unity with God the Father and the fact that He was not alone. - The unity of God cannot be broken.

jerusalem · Mar 29, 2013

In death, He made the perfect offering of His life to God for our salvation. This is why Peter emphasizes the purity of Christ’s blood and offering. Christ’s gift of Himself had to be without spot and blemish, as symbolized by the Old Testament sacrifices. These were instituted to foreshadow the purity of Christ’s own sacrifice. Jesus gave His life as an offering, holy and acceptable to God for our sakes. Now, as we put our trust in Him, we are accepted by God along with Him. Jesus did not die to pay (as is supposed) the penalty of death. It was not God’s punishment, although He allowed His Son to suffer because of the good that would ensue. The judgment upon Jesus at His trial was the justice of man. The justice of God was the justice of the resurrection, when the Father overturned the verdict of an earthly court and raised Jesus to a position of heavenly glory, giving Him a name that is above every name. It was to ‘Him who judges righteously’ that Jesus committed Himself (1 Pet.2:23), not to the justice of sinful man.

hedrick · Mar 29, 2013

On Rom 3:25 ff, righteousness is an OT concept, based on the covenant. For God, it is his faithfulness in carrying out his covenant commitments. For us, it is our status as proper members of the covenant. The idea that righteousness is moral perfection is the one that Paul is *against.* Righteousness for us consists in being "in Christ," not in sinlessness.

In this case God's righteousness is his commitment to redeem Israel. 25 tells us that in the past he overlooked sins, but in Christ he deals with them. This doesn't suggest that Christ's death was needed for him to forgive, since in the past he did so. It's just that in the past he overlooked sin without really dealing with it. Christ's death and resurrection are the instrument of regenerating people to deal with the cause of sin.

To connect this with Jesus' own teaching, in the Last Supper he said that his blood is the blood of the new covenant. Most interpreters understand this as a reference to Jer 31:31. He saw his death as a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant in which the external law is replaced by a law written in our hearts. This is the same change that Paul is referring to in Rom 3.

The context of sacrifice is of course the OT. As far as I can tell, OT sacrifice is not a punishment. It is a voluntary act that people do to symbolize their repentance and the depth of their commitment to change. I see Jesus death as atonement: it is an act of repentance on behalf of his people. But it's not that God needs to kill someone before he can forgive.

bling · Mar 29, 2013

jerusalem said:
Thanks. - No problem, should that rebellious child repent.

What is the personal problem the Father has if the child does not repent since that problem is the childs?

Look at Luke 15 and the prodigal son story. Did the Father have any problem forgiving the young son? Was the problem of forgiveness with the Father or the son?

Our atonement is achieved for us through our being raised up in Christ, who gave Himself for us that we might know God through Him and the power of the resurrection. His one perfect offering is accepted for us, who are forgiven and follow Him in faith. In Christ, His righteousness avails as a covering for sin for all who now walk in the Spirit. Paul declared: There is, therefore, no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1, NKJ). His death brought to fulfillment and completion His whole offering to save us from our sins. The cross was the climax of His witness in the flesh for us that we might repent and be crucified in Him to the world, but live unto God. From the witness of His glorious resurrection, we look back to the cross and are drawn near, realizing that in Him is life, where death has no power, nor sin any place.

There is no issue with Christ being victorious over death, sin, evil and satan, but that is not atonement, so Our atonement is achieved for us through our being raised up in Christ does not fit the definition of atonement. We are raised up to a new life in Christ as he was raised, but that is not atonement, but comes after atonement and forgiveness.

Again think about it as a wonderful parent handling of a disobedient rebellious child: The Parents forgiveness is part of the handling, hopefully the relationship will grow stronger (raised to new life) from the handling of the transgression, so what else is need? I am suggesting atonement is needed.

If you could answer my questions on the previous post we might be able to move on?

ForceofTime · Mar 29, 2013

hedrick said:
On Rom 3:25 ff, righteousness is an OT concept, based on the covenant. For God, it is his faithfulness in carrying out his covenant commitments. For us, it is our status as proper members of the covenant. The idea that righteousness is moral perfection is the one that Paul is *against.* Righteousness for us consists in being "in Christ," not in sinlessness.

In this case God's righteousness is his commitment to redeem Israel. 25 tells us that in the past he overlooked sins, but in Christ he deals with them.

Deals with them how? "in his blood".

This doesn't suggest that Christ's death was needed for him to forgive, since in the past he did so. It's just that in the past he overlooked sin without really dealing with it.

So, since it was not dealt with, can it then be said it was truly forgiven?

Christ's death and resurrection are the instrument of regenerating people to deal with the cause of sin.

Again, deal how? The cause of sin is dealt with by nailing our old man to the Cross, being baptized in the death of Jesus, which is then followed by being resurrected with Him in newness of life.

To connect this with Jesus' own teaching, in the Last Supper he said that his blood is the blood of the new covenant. Most interpreters understand this as a reference to Jer 31:31. He saw his death as a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant in which the external law is replaced by a law written in our hearts. This is the same change that Paul is referring to in Rom 3.

The old heart had to go: Eze 36:26 KJV A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The old man had to go too: Rom 8:7-10 KJV
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The context of sacrifice is of course the OT. As far as I can tell, OT sacrifice is not a punishment.

The sacrifice itself received the punishment that was due to the people.

It is a voluntary act that people do to symbolize their repentance and the depth of their commitment to change.

Voluntary? So, if the people simply chose not to participate then they were no better or worse? The ordinance of sacrifice was commanded by God, not man; moreover, Jesus Christ fulfilled this sacrifice in His flesh.

I see Jesus death as atonement: it is an act of repentance on behalf of his people. But it's not that God needs to kill someone before he can forgive.

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him"

The Atonement is so much more than an act of repentance; it is the Victory of Salvation over sin and death into such a nearness to God that we may call Him, "Abba, Father!".

The old man can never say that.

jerusalem · Mar 29, 2013

Hedrick: "As far as I can tell, OT sacrifice is not a punishment."

True. And the lambs, goats and bulls certainly were not "punished" in the place of those for whom they were offered!

Good comments.

J

jerusalem · Mar 29, 2013

In making the perfect sacrifice of His life to God for our sakes, it was necessary for Him to suffer and die. Surprising as it may seem, the Hebrew word translated ‘bore’ in Isaiah 53:12—the primitive root ‘nasa’, meaning literally ‘to lift’ or ‘lift away’ can mean ‘bear’, but it is also one of several scriptural metaphors that can convey the concept of forgiveness. Notice:

‘The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, …’ (Ex.34:6-7, NKJ).

‘.. Look on my affliction and my pain, and forgive all my sins’ (Ps.25:16-18, NKJ; ‘take away all my sins’, NIV).

‘You have forgiven the iniquity of Your people; You have covered all their sin’ (Ps.85:2, NKJ).

Also, notice from Psalm 32:1-5:

‘Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit. .. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord” – and you forgave the guilt of my sin’ (NIV).

In all the above examples, the word conveying forgiveness is the same Hebrew word ‘nasa’. Consequently, Isaiah 53:12 can be understood as meaning that ‘He,’ the Lord Jesus, ‘forgave the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.’

J

Clare73 · Mar 29, 2013

Arcoe said:
But yet He decrees it for all men. How lovely.

You don't believe in original sin?

Clare73 · Mar 29, 2013

jerusalem said:
Clare73 said:

jerusalem said:

Ok, who would like to throw the first stone? : )

Click to expand...

Scripture would.
That's not what the word of God reveals in Ro 3:25-26.

For it matters not your human reasoning about it,
all that matters is what the word of God reveals.

And it reveals substitutional penal atonement.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26).

Click to expand...

Clare - The word is "righteousness":

Jesus was set forth at the cross "to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to declare the righteousness of God "(Rom.3:25 & 26, NKJ).

The words of Paul speak of justification through faith in the sacrifice of Christ. In the Greek, the passage does not say that Jesus died to demonstrate Gods justice

The doctrine of penal substitution asks us to believe that the Father declared His own Son guilty of sin and worthy of death in agreement with His Sons false accusers. No. The law of God releases the repentant from punishmentnot by transferring it to someone else, but through the godly act of forgiveness(remember: 'He was deprived of justice,' Acts 8:33, NIV)

Thanks, jerusalem.

Let me begin by addressing your application of Ac 8:33, above.

It was not God who was deprived of justice in Ac 8:33, it was Jesus who was deprived of justice, by Pilate and the Jews who had him murdered (Ac 7:52).

So Ac 8:33 does not support your interpretation.

And now to the substance of your response.
It appears you are very uninformed on several of the basics regarding Ro 3:25-26.

A. Righteousness
God's righteousness is his justice.
God's justice is his righteousness.
"Justice" and "righteousness" are the same Greek word, dikaiosune, and they are the same thing.

You are using the word, "righteousness" in the sense of "holiness."
However, Biblically, "righteousness" and "justice" connote God's active condemnation of sin.
Whereas, "holiness" means "set apart" from sin, and connotes God's purity, as distinct from his active condemnation of sin.

B. The Greek Text
The text actually reads:
"Christ Jesus: whom God set forth as a propitiation. . .
for a display of his righteousness (active justice),
through the passing by of the sin that had occurred before (in the OT). . .
for the display of his righteousness (active justice) in the present time (NT),
for his being just and justifying him that is of the faith of Jesus."

C. Causal Connections
1) There is a causal connection ("through")
between the "display of his righteousness (active justice)" and
"the passing by of the sin that occurred before (in the OT)."

You do not reckon with this causality in your interpretation.
Correct interpretation of Ro 3:25-26 must show the nature and meaning of this causality.

2) God's setting forth of Jesus as a sacrifice for the sin of the past (OT) and the present (NT) is so God will be just.

You do not reckon with how Jesus' sacrifice makes God just.
Correct interpretation of Ro 3:25-26 must show how the sacrifice of Jesus makes God just.

D. Testimony of the OT
God in his infinite wisdom did not leave us with just words alone to understand Jesus' sacrifice.
In the OT sacrificial system God first gave as a pattern, shadow, copy (Heb 8:5) to show the nature, purpose and meaning of the NT sacrifice of Christ (Heb 10:1).

Lev 17:11-14: "I have given you the blood of the creature to make atonement for yourselves on the altar."

In the OT, the death of the animal made atonement for the sinner.
The animal substituted for the sinner in the death penalty (Ro 6:23) for his sin.
The OT sacrifices were substitutional atonement.

Likewise, the sacrifices were the penalty (fine) for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 14, 6:6, 21:41, 43).
Penalties are penal.
The OT sacrifices were penal.
Therefore, the OT sacrifices were substitutional penal atonement for sin.

The OT sacrificial system is the plumbline by which we measure our understanding of the NT's presentation of Jesus' sacrifice.

Your interpretation of the purpose, meaning and nature of Jesus' sacrifice is nowhere near the plumbline of the OT sacrificial system.

So these four major basics regarding Ro 3:25-26, about which you are very uninformed, have resulted in your whole interpretation of Ro 3:25-26 arriving at a completely unBiblical understanding.

Arcoe · Mar 30, 2013

Clare73 said:
You don't believe in original sin?

I don't believe in Calvinist's definition of original sin. My original sin was the first time I actually sinned knowingly and willingly.

Are you one of those who believe babies lust for sex inside their mom's wombs? Or perhaps you believe they lie, hate, and plot murder inside the womb.

'Penal Substitution', anyone?

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