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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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The only time the words “faith alone” appears in the Bible it is used to prove that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. For it is written:

“You see that a person is
justified by works and not by faith alone.”
(James 2:24).​

So then what was Paul talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9?

He was talking about being saved by God's grace which is the 1st aspect of salvation without the deeds of the Law. This does not exclude Sanctification that follows after being saved by God's grace. To see if Sanctification plays a part in your salvation, too.... just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. Folks are confusing two different aspects of salvation.
 
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Albion

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That's just not true. Search the Church Fathers and the Creeds, for example, looking for an affirmation of "Sacred Tradition."

But Scripture (and not Tradition) is right there in the Nicene Creed as a proof of a doctrinal point being asserted. Also, the Fathers did indeed cite Scripture as their proof of what they were teaching. However, I don't recall any example of one of the really early Fathers saying "Sacred Tradition, being another source of teaching given by the Almighty, has revealed to us the following truth."
 
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Irminhart

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The God-breathed (2Tim 3:16) Holy Scriptures are the authority for God's truth, and those NT Scriptures couldn't be more plain regarding the place of faith and performance in justification/salvation.
You have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I can't stand protestants. Like I said, I am no longer having this discussion. Please stop mentioning me.
 
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Clare73

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No. The principle called "Faith Alone" holds that it is only Faith, not works, that enables us to be saved.

It does NOT mean "faith apart from works."
Clare73 said:
Ro 4:6 - "God reckons righteousness apart (Gr: choris) from works." (Ro 4:6)
Unfortunately, this verse only serves to confirm what I explained, not the opposite.
Strawman.
 
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Albion

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What an unfortunate misreading of James' teaching.
 
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Clare73

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We are in agreement.
Justification and sanctification are two NT forms of righteousness.

Justification is apart from works, sanctification is through the works of obedience.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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What an unfortunate misreading of James' teaching.

Care to explain it?
Is not faith dead without works? (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
You say fath alone saves, but we know that a faith without works is dead.
We know that even the demons believe.
 
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Clare73

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You have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I can't stand protestants. Like I said, I am no longer having this discussion.
Feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertion.
 
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Albion

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Care to explain it?
Is not faith dead without works? (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
You say faith alone saves, but we know that a faith without works is dead.

Read in context, James' theme is rather clear. He is speaking of people who claim to be Christians, to have Faith, etc., but do not show any signs of having Faith. Almost everyone here says that Faith produces works. Okay, so what do we conclude when we find all sorts of people today claiming that they are Christians (for one reason or another) but they don't show any evidence of it? We think that it's unlikely that they really have had a conversion experience or else they would be living differently now.

That's what James was contending against--the easy, breezy, claim of people who say they have Faith but there's no evidence of it.

"Faith" (being alleged) that does not produce any works is dead, says James. It is phony. It is inoperable. It is a different kind of Faith. It isn't the Faith that our religion speaks of.

James is NOT saying that both Faith and your good deeds are earning merit in God's eyes and if you reach some level or other, you can be saved. NO! The Scripture's message is that CHRIST did the perfect act and paid for OUR sins because we are incapable of earning any merit in God's eyes by doing charitable deeds, etc. For us, and for James, it's all about Faith in Christ, but a real Faith, not just a claim of Faith.
 
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Irminhart

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I clearly said I'm no longer participating in this discussion "multiple times." Your constant quoting of scripture of which you do not understand, and can not be understood outside of the church will not change my mind on ceasing to have this conversation.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Not so, my friend. James 2:24 says,

“Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.”
(James 2:24).​

Okay. You believed that you are justified by faith, right? No doubt being justified by faith is dealing with salvation, right? But here is the thing. James writes that by works a man is justified and not by faith only (or alone). One word here. Justified. Justified is used for both faith and works in the same sentence in James 2:24. This means that works justify us because they are a part of the faith. I don't know why you keep dissecting the “work of faith” out of the “faith.” If we are saved by God's grace though faith, then this would not only include a belief in accepting Jesus as our Savior and His mercy, but it was also include “continuing in the faith” by putting forth “works of faith” to continue to access the grace of God. Can I prove that with the Bible? Yes, I can. It's 1 John 1:7. It's a beautiful verse. It says,

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.

(1 John 1:7).​

What is walking in the light mean?

By the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11:

Walking in the light = Loving your brother.​

So this means that if we love our brother, the blood fo Jesus cleanses us from all sin. So not only do we have to call upon the name of the Lord and seek God's grace through Jesus Christ by faith to be saved, but we must also continue in the faith with the work of faith, as well.

Furthermore, if you were to skip back to James chapter 1, you would read these things, as well.

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).
 
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Albion

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Not so, my friend. James 2:24 says,

“Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.”
(James 2:24).​
I've already explained that. If you don't understand where James is coming from and what he is contending against, you will continue to make that mistake. BUT if anyone takes in the whole of his message, it should become clearer.​

No, it doesn't. All that it means is that both are being discussed.
 
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So the word “justify” in James 2:24 is conveniently not talking about salvation when it talks about faith? Is there a faith that justifies that does not deal with salvation? This is very confusing. Does the Bible talk about a faith that justifies that does not save?

Also, your not really explaining James 1:12, and James 1:21-22 in how these verses work with your belief, either. They sound like holy actions that are tied to salvation. I get no indication in James 1:12, and James 1:21-22 that if you believed correctly these things will just automatically happen.
 
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zoidar

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I'm not to argue with you on the importance of obedience.

I took away most of my reply, since we have talked about it before ...

I will say though, I had such fire in my heart ten years ago, where did that go? How do I get that back?
 
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Excellent work on "NOT by works!" FOR The Body Of CHRIST! See you
{and ALL Precious BLOOD-Bought "members"} In God's Great GloryLand! ♫

IF I may Further Clarify What God Is Doing “In HIS Amazing GRACE!”
To Clear Up/Prevent any Pending “Confusion Of Contradictions," or ones that
will surely arise in future discussion?:

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Please never mix {wrongly combine!}
(Rom 11:6 KJB!), but Always Rightly Divide, God’s Word Of Truth!:

For Diligent students of The WORD, there are TWO Considerations:

1) God's earthly Context Of "Prophecy/LAW” Program, ISRAEL Prominent!

Peter [+11], TWELVE "preached!" CHRIST’s “teaching on earth”:
gospel of the kingdom!:
Salvation = "he that believeth {faith] AND is baptized {+work} Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mrk 16:16 cp Luk 7:29-30; Acs 2:38; Jam 2:17-18, 26 KJB!)

Notice: Jam 1:1 IS TO: The TWELVE Tribes Of ISRAEL!

The Plain And Clear Passages Of God’s Word Do NOT have to be have
to be Taken Out Of God’s Context, read in somewhere else, causing Confusing
re-interpretations, such as:
{God Really Meant To Say} “he that believeth is saved
and Should Then Be {water} baptized” = Plain And Clear foolishness, eh?

Water baptism {works}:
was “FOR the remission of sins” (Mrk 1:4; Luk 2:3; Acs 2:38 KJB!)

{Further Rightly Divided “study” Reveals That “water baptism cleansing,
along With Two Other Requirements was FOR
ISRAEL to be inducted into
God’s
PRIESThood!” but we will NOT “study” that here...}
+
Further Confirmation FOR ISRAEL, Under
"faith PLUS works"
{Many years later...}:

And when they heard it, they glorified The LORD, and said unto him, Thou seest,
brother, how many thousands of JEWS there are which BELIEVE; AND they are
ALL zealous of the law {WORKS} (Acs 21:20 cp "Obeying CHRIST observing AND
doing ALL things HE Commanded!"
Mat 28:19-20 AND 23:1-3 et al KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Tim 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

2) God's Heavenly Context Of MYSTERY / GRACE Program, Jew And
Gentile Equal!!

Paul “preached CHRIST’s Revelation from Heaven!”

Gospel Of GRACE!:
"Grace Through {all heart} faith" {no "works" Required} In The Death,
burial, And Resurrection Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, FOR Eternal Life!
----------------------------------

ONE Baptism (NOT water works, But} God’s Operation (Col 2:12 KJB!),

{NOT by works of righteousness which we have done}, But:
BY The Holy Spirit’s “
Washing of Regeneration” (Tit 3:5 KJB!),

For
Identification With/Induction/Immersion Into The Body Of CHRIST!
(Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-6; Col 2:12 KJB!),


And Many More Clear Passages, See Clare73’s quote above, or:
Clare73’s Excellent post #9 this thread...
-----------------------------------
Now,
what about “our good works,” Under God's PURE GRACE?
So glad you asked! What Saith The Scripture?

For we are HIS Workmanship, created in CHRIST JESUS Unto good
works, which God hath before Ordained that we should walk in them.”
(Eph 2:10 KJB!)


Well, Precious friends, are ALL “members Of CHRIST” going to Do What they
SHOULD Do? Seems highly Unlikely, Considering our Judgment, Correct?:

"Good works" Are Required For "Rewards" in Heaven! Amen?
{the "bad works" Lose reward,} But the "GRACE Through faith
believer" IS SAVED! (1 Cor 3:8-15 cp 5:5 KJB!)
----------------------

Ok, Just ONE more Confirmation:

[ God, Who Raises the dead! {v. 9} ], "Who Delivered us from so Great a
death, And Doth Deliver: in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"

Expounded:

{PAST Tense}: { Justification!!! = God Establishes "Relationship!" }
"Who Delivered us from so great a death, {From The PENALTY of sin!}

{ PRESENT Tense }: { Sanctification!! = WE "work out" fellowship on earth! }
And Doth Deliver: {From The POWER of sin!!}

{FUTURE Tense}: { Glorification! = Eternal "fellowship," IN HEAVEN!!! }
in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!" {From The PRESENCE of sin!!!}
(2 Cor 1:10 KJB!) BIG Difference, Correct?

Please, ALL Precious friends, Be Very RICHLY Blessed And Encouraged In:
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And, In HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen?
-----------------------
Conclusion:

We are NOT “The Judge” {God!}, who determines “who is SHOWING or
NOT showing their faith” = “Examine your OWN self!” (2 Co 13:5 KJB!),
Correct?

The Redeeming Work Of CHRIST On The Cross IS “ALL-Sufficient,”
Thus, True “GRACE Through faith” believers Are “BLOOD Bought!”
Correct?
+
Today’s PURE GRACE Message = “The preaching Of JESUS CHRIST,
According To THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY!
(Rom 16:25 KJB!),
Correct?
-------------------------
Blessed Be The Name of The LORD, And HIS Perfect, Pure, And
"Exalted Above All His Name," WORD For Ever And Ever!!
Amen?

To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”
 
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klutedavid

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I disagree. To be circumcised is the initiation into the law, the outward marker. That's because circumcision is in the law and you cannot say that you obey the law. Without being circumcised.

John 7:23
If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken.

The Jerusalem council was all about whether Gentiles had to obey the law.

You are dead wrong in that idea of yours, 'works salvation'.

Why are you wrong, here is what the text states.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren.

The 'the brethren' are Gentile Christians.

So your concept of 'works salvation' is incorrect. You should have said; faith plus the works of the law.
 
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klutedavid

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Salvation belongs to Jesus Christ alone. You must first be saved by Jesus Christ, before you can embark on a life of good works. No one can earn their salvation and no one can contribute to their own salvation.

In the end when all is said and done, salvation is ultimately a gift from God.
 
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