But to what degree do we measure our works in obedience? When it comes to passing a test, I think of A+ to F-. So when it comes to works in obedience are the test of true salvation, what's a passing grade for that test?
I don't see that as the point at all. Jesus is merely showing that without Him, we cannot keep His commands. Jesus says in another point in John 15:5 that without me, you can do nothing.
Anyways, if you were to read the conclusion of the chapter in Matthew 19, it was not a Believe in me because you cannot obey me type message. It was the exact opposite of that. For the disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus. For the rich man was not willing to forsake all that He had to follow Jesus, but the disciples were able to do so.
“When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” (Matthew 19:25-29).
Granted, it did not appear that this was a requirement for all, though. For we learn that Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods to the poor and yet Jesus said salvation had came to his house.
Granted, it did not appear that this was a requirement for all, though. For we learn that Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods to the poor and yet Jesus said salvation had came to his house.
No, man. None of them teach salvation by works. They teach necessity of works, yes, but not not as a cause of salvation. If a person is saved, works will necessarily RESULT --not CAUSE. if someone assumes they are saved, let's say because someone taught them that they are saved because they invited Jesus into their heart, but because they were also taught OSAS, and they had an emotional experience, yet they don't continue in repentance and pursuit of Christ by the Spirit of God, they have no reason to believe they are saved. This deals with perseverance of the saints. The regenerated believer will continue in the faith.But the verses speak against faith alone, though. Maybe if you can explain a few of them. Note: Besides #16, and #18, I believe the rest on my list are pretty iron clad in showing that we need to live holy as a part of being in God's kingdom (after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ). So please choose to explain #1-15 and #17.
I am afraid of nothing but the Lord my God. I'm tired of arguing against Protestantism.Not so. I think you are afraid to offer your best ideas.
Unfortunately, this verse only serves to confirm what I explained, not the opposite.Ro 4:6 - "God reckons righteousness apart (Gr: choris) from works." (Ro 4:6)
I have always seen Zacchaeus generosity as a consequence of him being saved, not an act by which he is saved.
Side Note:
Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.
When I speak of how we must obey God's laws: I am referring primarily to how we must obey those commands in the New Testament, and not the Old Testament. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, the Passover, etc. are ceremonial laws that are no longer binding upon the life of the believer today under the New Covenant. We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
In Luke 7 Jesus told a woman "who was a sinner", "Your sins are forgiven." "Your faith has saved you" and all she did was anoint his feet.
48 "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." Luke 7:48-50
How does "faith alone is not enough" refute that passage?
He didn't even say "go and sin no more". Just "go in peace".
This first section is in reply to all; not addressed to any person, but a general statement.
Faith leads to works by its very nature. You want to do good works, because your faith is not dead. If you have faith, good works is a natural result.
If your faith isn't correct, you won't do good works. It should permeate your life. As Romans 6 says, we are dead in Christ (our old life), reborn in Christ (our new life). Thus, if we are not doing good works in our own lives, it's because our faith is not what it should be and we need to re-evaluate what we believe and why we believe it.
There should be no argument over whether faith requires works to be alive.
James 2 bends over backwards to point out that faith without works is dead. No one can read it and come to any other conclusion.
Jesus, in Revelation, speaks of works as well, but differentiates between good and bad works.
To the church of Pergamos:
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works [bad], and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
—
To the church of Thyatira:
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works [good], and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
—
To the world (churches and all):
Revelation 22:10-12 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
These verses indicate a clear closing of probation in the end time. If you are unjust, you might as well be unjust still, probation has closed. If you are holy, be holy still. God is separating the wheat from the tares. Notice the last sentence... reward according to his work shall be—good or bad; for we know that the wicked will perish at the second coming and the truly faithful will be saved.Good works are manifested by faith, through the life of a changed individual. Bad works are works wrought through sin. Selfishness. Pride. Personal gain. Why do we get baptized if there is no life change? It comes down to your personal relationship with Jesus. If you are truly faithful, are seeking Him, good works will occur, not by effort, but because love is manifesting itself in your life. You genuinely care for your fellow man and want to do for others. Love is the focal point here. If you love God, love others, the natural result is good works, as long as sin doesn't abound.
This second section is a response to your original post. I agree, faith without works is dead. However, I wanted to address something you posted at the end, which I quoted.
Holiness. Commandment #4, to keep it holy. This indicates some effort on our part, to do God's will in our lives. Sabbath commandment aside (for the moment), God is asking us to be holy and righteous Christians. The word I like to use is devout.
Just what can we do to be holy, righteous people? Jesus is a vital component, along with the Holy Spirit, but we must make the effort ourselves, to align with God's will. The way we know we're holy is when we are in line with the character of God. Therefore, obedience is necessary. It's the only way to be in line with God's character.
If the New Testament law (love God, love others) is the only binding law, then why did Jesus point to the Ten Commandments in Revelation? Remember, this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This is Jesus coming to John with a clear, urgent, prophetic message for the churches and the people of the end time. Revelation is Jesus expressing in no uncertain terms His expectations for us.
And so you can't dismiss the following verses as irrelevant.
The true church (not a denomination, a remnant people) keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which is His testimony. Notice that commandment keepers are the target of the dragon. *rubs chin*
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Jesus ties commandment-keeping with faith. He also references the commandments of God, not just the commandments of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The very last verses of Revelation. A clear reference to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath; true worship vs false worship
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Looking back from Revelation, to the very words of Jesus about His new commandments. Nowhere does Jesus say, "Oh those old commandments? Yeah, just forget those. This is the new!"Just what are Jesus' commandments? He is our creator as per Colossians 1:16-20 et al, which is all-inclusive. The ones He gave to Adam and Eve. The ones He gave on Mt. Sinai (minus the obvious laws done away with at the cross). The ones He gave to the Pharisees that define ALL the law and the prophets around a central concept of love; the foundation of God's law. The first four of the Ten Commandments show us how to love God. The last six show us how to love others. Worship. Works.
Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Lastly, a warning from Jesus in Revelation about adding or taking away from the word of God.
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.And so, in my mind, you can't be holy unless you obey God's commandments that still apply to us. The Old and New Testaments are the two witnesses of God. Jesus is clearly pointing to the Ten Commandments. Jesus' work expands on the law of God, pointing to it, hanging the law and the prophets off of a central concept called love; the character of God.
One can't understand the concept of love without the law and the prophets (i.e. all of those words about commandment-keeping and how to be a Christian throughout the Bible). You can't pick and choose like a choose-your-own-adventure book (and I loved those as a teenager).
Jesus is tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, because He is hungry.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
In our hungriest (spiritually) times, it is the word of God that sustains us. We live by every word.
In closing, it makes no sense for Jesus to come to earth, expand on the law of God that He Himself gave at creation, gave on Mt. Sinai, gave throughout His ministry and then just do away with it at the cross. The work of Jesus was to show us the importance of God's law, not replace it with an abstract view of love. God doesn't change. The law is God's law. The sacrificial laws pointed to the the cross and the sanctuary in heaven where Jesus is mediating for us right now. The civil laws laid the ground work for our own laws today (capital punishment et al). The dietary laws help us to keep our temples (bodies) holy. In these things, we can clearly discern what Jesus intended for His people to obey and not obey. If you love God, you keep His commandments that are still binding, through the lens of love God, love others. The takeaway is that we need to realize Jesus came to expand (give understanding to), not retract from the word of God (or His law).
—
To all readers: You don't have to agree with anything I say. Pray for discernment. Read the Bible. Come to your own conclusions.
This first section is in reply to all; not addressed to any person, but a general statement.
Faith leads to works by its very nature. You want to do good works, because your faith is not dead. If you have faith, good works is a natural result.
If your faith isn't correct, you won't do good works. It should permeate your life. As Romans 6 says, we are dead in Christ (our old life), reborn in Christ (our new life). Thus, if we are not doing good works in our own lives, it's because our faith is not what it should be and we need to re-evaluate what we believe and why we believe it.
There should be no argument over whether faith requires works to be alive.
James 2 bends over backwards to point out that faith without works is dead. No one can read it and come to any other conclusion.
Jesus, in Revelation, speaks of works as well, but differentiates between good and bad works.
To the church of Pergamos:
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works [bad], and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
—
To the church of Thyatira:
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works [good], and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
—
To the world (churches and all):
Revelation 22:10-12 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
These verses indicate a clear closing of probation in the end time. If you are unjust, you might as well be unjust still, probation has closed. If you are holy, be holy still. God is separating the wheat from the tares. Notice the last sentence... reward according to his work shall be—good or bad; for we know that the wicked will perish at the second coming and the truly faithful will be saved.Good works are manifested by faith, through the life of a changed individual. Bad works are works wrought through sin. Selfishness. Pride. Personal gain. Why do we get baptized if there is no life change? It comes down to your personal relationship with Jesus. If you are truly faithful, are seeking Him, good works will occur, not by effort, but because love is manifesting itself in your life. You genuinely care for your fellow man and want to do for others. Love is the focal point here. If you love God, love others, the natural result is good works, as long as sin doesn't abound.
This second section is a response to your original post. I agree, faith without works is dead. However, I wanted to address something you posted at the end, which I quoted.
Holiness. Commandment #4, to keep it holy. This indicates some effort on our part, to do God's will in our lives. Sabbath commandment aside (for the moment), God is asking us to be holy and righteous Christians. The word I like to use is devout.
Just what can we do to be holy, righteous people? Jesus is a vital component, along with the Holy Spirit, but we must make the effort ourselves, to align with God's will. The way we know we're holy is when we are in line with the character of God. Therefore, obedience is necessary. It's the only way to be in line with God's character.
If the New Testament law (love God, love others) is the only binding law, then why did Jesus point to the Ten Commandments in Revelation? Remember, this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This is Jesus coming to John with a clear, urgent, prophetic message for the churches and the people of the end time. Revelation is Jesus expressing in no uncertain terms His expectations for us.
And so you can't dismiss the following verses as irrelevant.
The true church (not a denomination, a remnant people) keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, which is His testimony. Notice that commandment keepers are the target of the dragon. *rubs chin*
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Jesus ties commandment-keeping with faith. He also references the commandments of God, not just the commandments of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The very last verses of Revelation. A clear reference to the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath; true worship vs false worship
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Looking back from Revelation, to the very words of Jesus about His new commandments. Nowhere does Jesus say, "Oh those old commandments? Yeah, just forget those. This is the new!"Just what are Jesus' commandments? He is our creator as per Colossians 1:16-20 et al, which is all-inclusive. The ones He gave to Adam and Eve. The ones He gave on Mt. Sinai (minus the obvious laws done away with at the cross). The ones He gave to the Pharisees that define ALL the law and the prophets around a central concept of love; the foundation of God's law. The first four of the Ten Commandments show us how to love God. The last six show us how to love others. Worship. Works.
Matthew 22:34-40 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Lastly, a warning from Jesus in Revelation about adding or taking away from the word of God.
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.And so, in my mind, you can't be holy unless you obey God's commandments that still apply to us. The Old and New Testaments are the two witnesses of God. Jesus is clearly pointing to the Ten Commandments. Jesus' work expands on the law of God, pointing to it, hanging the law and the prophets off of a central concept called love; the character of God.
One can't understand the concept of love without the law and the prophets (i.e. all of those words about commandment-keeping and how to be a Christian throughout the Bible). You can't pick and choose like a choose-your-own-adventure book (and I loved those as a teenager).
Jesus is tempted by Satan to turn stones into bread, because He is hungry.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
In our hungriest (spiritually) times, it is the word of God that sustains us. We live by every word.
In closing, it makes no sense for Jesus to come to earth, expand on the law of God that He Himself gave at creation, gave on Mt. Sinai, gave throughout His ministry and then just do away with it at the cross. The work of Jesus was to show us the importance of God's law, not replace it with an abstract view of love. God doesn't change. The law is God's law. The sacrificial laws pointed to the the cross and the sanctuary in heaven where Jesus is mediating for us right now. The civil laws laid the ground work for our own laws today (capital punishment et al). The dietary laws help us to keep our temples (bodies) holy. In these things, we can clearly discern what Jesus intended for His people to obey and not obey. If you love God, you keep His commandments that are still binding, through the lens of love God, love others. The takeaway is that we need to realize Jesus came to expand (give understanding to), not retract from the word of God (or His law).
—
To all readers: You don't have to agree with anything I say. Pray for discernment. Read the Bible. Come to your own conclusions.
No, man. None of them teach salvation by works. They teach necessity of works, yes, but not not as a cause of salvation. If a person is saved, works will necessarily RESULT --not CAUSE. if someone assumes they are saved, let's say because someone taught them that they are saved because they invited Jesus into their heart, but because they were also taught OSAS, and they had an emotional experience, yet they don't continue in repentance and pursuit of Christ by the Spirit of God, they have no reason to believe they are saved. This deals with perseverance of the saints. The regenerated believer will continue in the faith.
As with Salvation, so Sanctification, growth, works. The motivator is the Spirit of God within --not the will of man. Yet the will of man is totally engrossed in the activity, because we are one with Christ, partakers in every way. We can't help but repent, seek his face, desire him, and to be pure of heart. This is not natural to us as humans, but as regenerate humans. We were never designed to be entities in and of ourselves.
For Paul, there are only two considerations:Salvation can not be, and is not by faith alone. Forgive me for being too blunt, but this is the problem with Protestantism. There is no basis for their fundamental beliefs. It's strange how people quote verses and church father's, then try to interpret scripture outside of the church. Where do you think scripture came from? The Church! So many versus refute the notion of Sola-Scriptura & Sola-Fide. All my life Protestantism has felt so off to me. What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.
The thing is, I don't see how we can go through life without works. It seems as though it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid doing them. Just simply praying for someone is a good work. Praying for someone you don't like is an even greater work. A few days ago someone's car was stuck in the snow. So I gave them a push. Why did I feel compelled to help? I don't think it was me myself who felt compelled, but rather God in me that felt compelled to help.
The God-breathed (2Tim 3:16) Holy Scriptures are the authority for God's truth, and those NT Scriptures couldn't be more plain regarding the place of faith and performance in justification/salvation, as demonstrated in post #109.It doesn't matter what anyone's denomination is. What amazes me, is how it's a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant. Read your Bible, read of the saint's and the early church father's and it will be made clear the Sola's are not Christian doctrines or beliefs held anytime prior to the reformation.
The thing is, I don't see how we can go through life without works. It seems as though it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid doing them. Just simply praying for someone is a good work. Praying for someone you don't like is an even greater work. A few days ago someone's car was stuck in the snow. So I gave them a push. Why did I feel compelled to help? I don't think it was me myself who felt compelled, but rather God in me that felt compelled to help.
This notion of a convenience oriented belief in Jesus being a free ticket to Heaven is the most pervasive corruption of Salvation today. It exists as one extreme of the Salvation Doctrine continuum which has at the opposite end Extreme Calvinism TULIP.
After intense investigation and much prayer, I now hold to prevenient self willed choice of Jesus unto spiritual rebirth by God, with Corporate Election afterwards within The Kingdom.
Many also felt that way about what Jesus taught while he was here on earth with us. . .this demonstrates nothing.Total Depravity with sentient awareness of sin. Unmerited Election of the Church body after rebirth. Limited Atonement theory, which carries the stench of the Pit is a falsehood. Grace is resistable. Saints persevere only by means of complete submission in faith.
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