Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

klutedavid said:
Put Jesus first in everything, even in doctrine.
We are saved by what Jesus did for us and not by anything we could ever do.

You must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to even be called a Christian.
Faith comes before any works can be conducted.

Romans 9:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I stand corrected. . .thanks.

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

Clare73 said:
And so the faith that saves is apart from their works.

Albion said:
In one sense, yes, and in another sense, no. What was the meaning you had in mind when you asked the question?

Refresh my memory. . .I don't remember asking a question.

Albion · Feb 19, 2021

Clare73 said:
Refresh my memory. . .I don't remember asking a question.

I will rephrase. What did you mean by Faith and works being "apart?"

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

Albion said:
I will rephrase. What did you mean by Faith and works being "apart?"

I was answering from the point of view of the premise, which includes works in justification, rather than going to the root of the matter;
i.e., justification occurs at the point of one coming to true faith, at which point there are no works of faith to bring with it.

And klutedavid graciously brought me back to the root of the matter.

Grace ambassador · Feb 19, 2021

Ah, Precious friend(s). The classic debate over "salvation by faith + works" vs
GRACE Through faith Alone?

Huh? James said, Inspired By God: “faith Without works is DEAD”
(Jam 2 : 26 KJB!) Conclusion: “Dead faith cannot save” anyone, correct?

vs:

Paul said, Inspired By God: “By GRACE Through faith Are ye saved…”

Conclusion: “NOT of yourselves, It Is The Gift Of God, NOT of works,
lest any man should boast!” (Eph 2 : 8-9 KJB!)

faith WITHOUT works saves, Correct?

But, but, HOW can faith WITHOUT works save you IF faith WITHOUT works is DEAD!

contradiction? None In God’s Pure, Holy, And Preserved WORD!
Correct?

So, IF “BOTH of the above apply” to us, today, as Many think, HOW do they
explain their dilemma WITHOUT CAUSING this contradiction?

Your Sincere “efforts” in this thread can accomplish this, or:

Is not God’s “Answer” in 2 Tim 2 : 15 KJB!?

Dave G. · Feb 19, 2021

Chris Endrizzi said:
Ah, Precious friend(s). The classic debate over "salvation by faith + works" vs
GRACE Through faith Alone?

Huh? James said, Inspired By God: “faith Without works is DEAD”
(Jam 2 : 26 KJB!) Conclusion: “Dead faith cannot save” anyone, correct?

vs:

Paul said, Inspired By God: “By GRACE Through faith Are ye saved…”

Conclusion: “NOT of yourselves, It Is The Gift Of God, NOT of works,
lest any man should boast!” (Eph 2 : 8-9 KJB!)

faith WITHOUT works saves, Correct?

But, but, HOW can faith WITHOUT works save you IF faith WITHOUT works is DEAD!

contradiction? None In God’s Pure, Holy, And Preserved WORD!
Correct?

So, IF “BOTH of the above apply” to us, today, as Many think, HOW do they
explain their dilemma WITHOUT CAUSING this contradiction?

Your Sincere “efforts” in this thread can accomplish this, or:

Is not God’s “Answer” in 2 Tim 2 : 15 KJB!?

We are saved first and that is unto good works. In fact our works without salvation are worthless.

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

duplicate

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

Chris Endrizzi said:
Ah, Precious friend(s). The classic debate over "salvation by faith + works" vs
GRACE Through faith Alone?

Huh? James said, Inspired By God: “faith Without works is DEAD”
(Jam 2 : 26 KJB!) Conclusion: “Dead faith cannot save” anyone, correct?

vs:

Paul said, Inspired By God: “By GRACE Through faith Are ye saved…”

Conclusion: “NOT of yourselves, It Is The Gift Of God, NOT of works,
lest any man should boast!” (Eph 2 : 8-9 KJB!)

faith WITHOUT works saves, Correct?

But, but, HOW can faith WITHOUT works save you IF faith WITHOUT works is DEAD!

contradiction? None In God’s Pure, Holy, And Preserved WORD!
Correct?

So, IF “BOTH of the above apply” to us, today, as Many think, HOW do they
explain their dilemma WITHOUT CAUSING this contradiction?

Your Sincere “efforts” in this thread can accomplish this, or:

Is not God’s “Answer” in 2 Tim 2 : 15 KJB!?

There is no contradiction.

Justification occurs at the point of one coming to true faith, at which point there are no works of faith to bring with it.

Justification is reckoned by faith, not by faith's works, just as Abraham' faith was reckoned as justified, no works involved (Ge 15:6; Ro 4:1-8).

Feel free to address the Scriptures in post #9.

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

duplicate

Grace ambassador · Feb 19, 2021

Dave G. said:
We are saved first and that is unto good works. In fact our works without salvation are worthless.

So, you believe it is saved first, By GRACE Through faith, Alone, without doing ONE good work, For God's Eternal {Not "temporary" = works KEEP you saved} Life?

vs?:

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

So, this is "belief" In The Gospel Of God's GRACE, but with the Disclaimer that
"Not GRACE Through faith, Alone," = God's Eternal Salvation is NOT imparted/imputed/credited until AFTER "living holy is accomplished," And, death or rapture of the saint occurs, Correct?

Just trying to understand ya'lls' understanding, I think...

Clare73 · Feb 19, 2021

Albion said:
No. The principle called "Faith Alone" holds that it is only Faith, not works, that enables us to be saved.

It does NOT mean "faith apart from works."

Ro 4:6 - "God reckons righteousness apart (Gr: choris) from works." (Ro 4:6)

Faith necessarily will produce works, but our salvation is not based upon any merits supposedly accumulated through the performance of works. So when it comes to justification, it's Faith alone which accomplishes this, but genuine Faith is never without accompanying works.

Dave G. · Feb 19, 2021

Chris Endrizzi said:
So, you believe it is saved first, By GRACE Through faith, Alone, without doing ONE good work, For God's Eternal {Not "temporary" = works KEEP you saved} Life?

vs?:

So, this is "belief" In The Gospel Of God's GRACE, but with the Disclaimer that
"Not GRACE Through faith, Alone," = God's Eternal Salvation is NOT imparted/imputed/credited until AFTER "living holy is accomplished," And, death or rapture of the saint occurs, Correct?

Just trying to understand ya'lls' understanding, I think...

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

ozso · Feb 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
We need to at least be faithful over a few things. How so?
Well, Jesus said that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord.

“His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

However, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness.

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 5:30).

You are taking Jeremiah 17:9 out of context.

5 “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jeremiah 17:9).

Also, Ezekiel 36:26-27 says, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

Note: While this promise is given to Israel (see: verse 28), this portion of the text (verses 26-27) of this promise would also be given to Gentile believers in Christ, as well. This is why Jesus said we must be born again. This is why we are given the Holy Spirit after accepting Jesus as our Savior. We are to be a new creation in Christ and not the old man.

It seems when someone preaches strongly about our ability of works and holiness being a co-requirement of justification, they start watering it down some when I ask them quantify how much is necessary. You've taken it down to a few things. Some synonyms the dictionary gives for "few" are "hardly any", "scarcely any", "one or two". Even "insufficient". I'm going with we have insufficient holiness to bring about co-justification and we have to leave our justification to the mercy of God through Jesus Christ. Luke 18:13

I used Jeremiah 17:9 specifically because I've seen you use it when someone says God knows their heart.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 19, 2021

klutedavid said:
Circumcision was shorthand for the law, to be circumcised is to be under the law. Paul called the Jews the circumcised. The verdict of the Jerusalem council was not the simple statement; Gentiles do not need to be circumcised. If that is what the Jerusalem council had said I would agree with you. The Jerusalem council answered the question of whether the Gentiles needed to be under the law to be saved. That is why the Gentiles were given four rules to abstain from. This is not difficult to comprehend in the text.

No. That's totally not true. Lets read it.

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

It says repeatedly that there were certain men (Jews) who were saying to believers that they must be circumcised AND to keep the Law of Moses. It does not say you must keep the Law of Moses, AND to keep the Law of Moses. They were not stuttering.

Paul also attacks this same heresy mentioned at the Jerusalem council.

For he said,

“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek,
was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

And he said,

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

You said:
Whether you can accept it or not, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved.
Our salvation results from the reconciliation that Jesus initiated. That is why anyone who believes in the death and resurrection, and confesses the name of Jesus. Will be saved and there cannot be debate about this.

Everyone sins and they sin often, just accept that you are a sinner. Accept that you are saved by the grace of God.

It is true that whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, but that is not the whole story involving salvation. But we are also told: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Revelation 2:10).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

“ And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).

“...Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You said:
The only way you can ever know if someone else is a Christian, is by the fruit they exhibit in their life. Not by whether they get drunk or not.

This is a contradiction. You say that the only someone can tell if one is Christian is by their fruit, and then you say it is not on whether they get drunk or not. Getting drunk would be bad fruit.

Lets repeat the latter half of that passage again.

“Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:10).

You said:
The New Testament is summarized by two words, Faith and Love.

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
James said faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
The author of Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;” (Hebrews 12:14-15).
Paul says, if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Jesus defines how He wants to be loved in John 14:15.

You said:
Christ first then the love of others.

But doesn't Belief Alone-ism in the churches today teach that one is saved solely by the finished work of Christ and it is in nothing you do? So what is the point of loving the Lord and others if it really does not change one's eternal destiny?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 19, 2021

Chris Endrizzi said:
So, you believe it is saved first, By GRACE Through faith, Alone, without doing ONE good work, For God's Eternal {Not "temporary" = works KEEP you saved} Life?

vs?:

So, this is "belief" In The Gospel Of God's GRACE, but with the Disclaimer that
"Not GRACE Through faith, Alone," = God's Eternal Salvation is NOT imparted/imputed/credited until AFTER "living holy is accomplished," And, death or rapture of the saint occurs, Correct?

Just trying to understand ya'lls' understanding, I think...

Dave G. said:
Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When we read Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5, we must understand that...

#1. Paul is referring to salvation by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior (Which is the 1st aspect of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law because one is being saved by God's grace and mercy). For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13). It is is a belief in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, as well. This 1st aspect is not to be confused with the 2nd aspect of salvation that follows which is Sanctification (i.e. living Holy by God working through us - See: Philippians 2:13, John 15:5).

#2. During this time period: Paul was focused on attacking a current heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” (Which basically says a person first needs to be circumcised in order to be initially saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel, and in seeking His forgiveness by way of prayer) (Please read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). While Ephesians is not as clear on the issue of “Circumcision Salvationism”, Paul does refer to circumcision and mentions the Gentiles in Ephesians 2:11-13. Anyways, if a person thought they had to first be circumcised to be initially saved instead of by faith in Jesus Christ, then a person would be making the Law ALONE or Works ALONE the basis and or foundation of their salvation. This is why Paul said that we are saved by God's grace and not of works (like circumcision). Circumcision was something that came from the 613 laws of Moses. At the cross, the 613 laws of Moses was ended and Jesus fulfilled them and He brought in a New Covenant with New Commands. These NT commands would be in harmony with flowing out from God's grace (See: Titus 2:11-12), and flowing out as a call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

#3. Paul is referring to Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism in Ephesians 2:9 (without God's grace). For these are the kind of works that a man would boast in themselves in doing (like Jews would boast in their circumcision).

#4. Paul is referring to God Directed Works Done Through the believer in Ephesians 2:10 because these are the kind of works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. For they are works that were previously ordained for us to do by the Lord. For Philippians 2:13, and John 15:5 suggests that it is God that does the good work through us. This is also the “work of faith” that Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Ephesians 2:9 is not referring to the “work of faith” that follows being saved by God's grace, but it referring to Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace. Ephesians 2:9 is a Man Directed Work that a man would boast in himself in doing. No boasting can be done for a “work of faith” because it is required of us, and it is God who does the good work in us (ultimately). So our boast and praise would be unto God for any good we do, and it would not be in ourselves.

So in conclusion:

Paul is attacking the heresy of Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace, and James is attacking Belief Alone-ism which is a denial of the necessity of the work of faith that follows being saved by God's grace through faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So there is no contradiction between Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2:17.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 19, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems when someone preaches strongly about our ability of works and holiness being a co-requirement of justification, they start watering it down some when I ask them quantify how much is necessary. You've taken it down to a few things. The some synonyms the dictionary gives for "few" are "hardly any", "scarcely any", "one or two". Even "insufficient". I'm going with we have insufficient holiness to bring about co-justification and we have to leave our justification to the mercy of God through Jesus Christ. Luke 18:13

We have to understand that the Pharisees created a system of religion (Contrary to Scripture) that was highly works based and had little to no grace or mercy. This is why Jesus referred to the tax collector calling out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins. It was not that Jesus was promoting that we should just accept our sinfulness and we can do nothing about it. The tax collector was either coming to God for the first time, or he stumbled at a particular point in his life. For Jesus said to two people to “sin no more” in John 5:14, and John 8:11. I mean, why would Jesus be upset with the pharisees in calling them hypocrites if everyone is sinful and a hypocrite?

You said:
I used Jeremiah 17:9 specifically because I've seen you use it when someone says God knows their heart.

Again, you ripped the verse out of it's context and I shown how you did that. Again, but what really settles the matter is the words of Jesus. For Jesus said a good man brings forth that which is good out of the good treasure of his heart and an evil man brings forth that which is evil out of the bad treasure in his heart (See: Luke 6:45).

Mark Quayle · Feb 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

So your definition of "belief-alone-ism" we finally get at the end of your post.. Nothing you said, then, denies sola fide. I'm not a veteran of this site, but I have yet to hear anyone posting here say that one may live any old kind of life after being Redeemed.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 19, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So your definition of "belief-alone-ism" we finally get at the end of your post.. Nothing you said, then, denies sola fide. I'm not a veteran of this site, but I have yet to hear anyone posting here say that one may live any old kind of life after being Redeemed.

Please feel to address the verses. I am going to add a few more to the list.

Mark Quayle · Feb 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Please feel to address the verses. I am going to add a few more to the list.

I don't have any objection to the verses. My objection is to the notion, not quite implied, that works is necessary for salvation, or that salvation is at all other than by grace by faith in Christ alone.

Irminhart · Feb 19, 2021

Salvation can not be, and is not by faith alone. Forgive me for being too blunt, but this is the problem with Protestantism. There is no basis for their fundamental beliefs. It's strange how people quote verses and church father's, then try to interpret scripture outside of the church. Where do you think scripture came from? The Church! So many versus refute the notion of Sola-Scriptura & Sola-Fide. All my life Protestantism has felt so off to me. What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.

Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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