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Dan1988

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You're the rare exception, most people approach Scripture with their particular denominational agenda then superimpose their view on scripture to make it conform to their preconceived meaning.

The Holy Scriptures are not there for anyone to pick them apart and throw out parts they don't like and twist others to say what they want them to say.

The Holy Scriptures were given to Gods Children for our instruction and edification. We don't have the right to change a single jot or tittle.

The Bible reads us we don't read it
 
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HIM

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God giveth light to every one that comes into this world. That that which may be known of God is manifested in us, so we are without excuse.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


The Gift of the Holy Spirit that is promised is separate from this. We must repent to receive Him in this manner.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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setst777

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Very good. I would add that, now that Lord Jesus is risen and glorified, the Spirit of Christ, whom Christ sent into the world after His ascension, is that light of Christ that lights every man that cometh into the world and draws all men to Christ.

John 12:32 (WEB) 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The Lord Jesus instructs that this convicting work of the Spirit is not selective, but rather, for the world.

John 16:7-9 (WEB) 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment

This is especially so as the Gospel, which is the Sword of the Spirit, is preached to the world.

Ephesians 6:17 (WEB) . . .the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

So if a person does not believe after learning the Gospel coupled with the convicting work of the Spirit, then that is not because they couldn't believe, but rather, that they refused to believe the Truth, and so they remain condemned (Romans 1:20).

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Hebrews 4:1-2 (WEB)
4 Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.

Once a person believes, then the Spirit indwells the believer to give the believer Spiritual life:

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out,
“If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Spirit must indwell you to receive the life of the Spirit, and you receive the Spirit by faith (John 7:37-39).

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Born Again. . .

Therefore, through the Word of God coupled with the convicting work of the Spirit, does anyone come to believe in Jesus (Romans 10:17).

Through belief in the Word, the Spirit indwells the believer to give them a new birth - born again - only if they are believing in Lord Jesus:

1 Peter 1:23 (WEB) 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever.

James 1:18 (WEB) 18 Of his own will he gave birth to us by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

So, the indwelling Spirit gives life to the believer, and leads them into Life, only in so far as the believer remains faithful to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who indwells him:

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB)
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh (the carnal mind) will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

For the Spirit will not lead you to life, if you refuse to follow.

Ephesians 4:30-32 (WEB)
30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving each other, just as God also in Christ forgave you.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 (WEB)
19 Don’t quench the Spirit. 20 Don’t despise prophecies. 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:29-30 (WEB)
29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14 31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (WEB)
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Blessings
 
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What happened immediately after Adam sinned? He confessed! Adam and Eve both confessed. And yet the curse remained and they were cast out of paradise.

But your missing the point. They died spiritually that day. Yet, many appear to mock the idea that a person can die spiritually by committing just one sin (and yet the Bible teaches it). Yes, I believe they were most likely restored by their confession, but we know that not everyone reacts that way (like with Cain). There are two choices each with their own destinies.

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13).

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" (Romans 2:7-9).
 
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*Sigh* Repentance is not an “individual command” like with God telling Noah to build an ark. Building the ark only applied to Noah and possibily even his family, and not all men during that time. If Jesus commanded repentance elsewhere as a command to the crowds in general, why would repentance not be a command in other instances? Sure, the language used in Luke 13:3 and Luke 13:5 makes it sound like it is not a command, but because repentance is mentioned as a command elsewhere generally, we know it is a command. That would be like saying that murder mentioned by Paul in Romans 1:29 is not the breaking of God's command. It's just silly. We know “Thou shalt do no murder,” is a command by the words of Jesus Himself (Matthew 19:17-18). It doesn't matter if the wording is not used as a command in one particular instance. It is still a command if it was used as a command elsewhere. God wants all men to repent and that is a command.

Acts of the Apostles 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

Acts of the Apostles 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts of the Apostles 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;​

Note: By the way, this verse says “repent” and be converted. Calvinists believe that you are first converted and then you repent. Yet, my Bible tells me differently. Yet another deathblow to Calvinism.

Acts of the Apostles 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.​

Not sure if you caught it or not. But we Gentiles are commanded to repent and turn to God do works befitting of repentance. This is the same thing John the Baptist was saying.

Anyways, in conclusion:

While the wording used by Jesus in Luke 13:3, and Luke 13:5 makes it sound like “repent” is not a command, we know that it is a command based on the fact that it is a command mentioned elsewhere. The same is true of when murder is being spoken of. We know that murder is the breaking of God's command that says, “Thou shalt do no murder.”


Side Note:

You also have not really resolved the problem I put forth to you. Whether you believe repentance is a command or not, the point is that Jesus was preaching to people that they should repent and if they don't, they would perish. Again, this does not make sense in Calvinism. The Non-Elect cannot repent without God enabling them (or gifting them the ability) to repent, and the Elect are never in danger of ever perishing. So the words of Jesus in Luke 13:3, and Luke 13:5 refutes Calvinism. Well, pretty much the majority of the Bible refutes Calvinism, but that's another topic altogether.
 
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Clare73

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"God who desires all men to be saved" is only half of the NT revelation.
God desires all men to be saved in the way he has appointed.
That is not a desire by God for unlimited salvation, which is what is implied when only half of the NT revelation is presented.

Keeping in mind, he has the power to save all, but does not choose to do so, because he does not desire unlimited salvation.

God's "desires" have to be understood in context of the whole counsel of God.

I think we are in agreement.
 
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The way that Passage is worded, that would not be a command.

Blessings.

See post #367.
 
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Servus

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I believe I asked you once who else holds your born again Christian believers experience multiple spiritual deaths scenario, and you told me there's no one that you know of. So is it any wonder why I and others don't accept it? You've generated a lot of arguing over it though, that's for sure.
 
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See post #367.
 
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Not true. I told you before that Dan Corner believes in it. He wrote an 800 page book on the topic called “The Believer's Conditional Security.” It has 79 ratings at Amazon and only 12 appear to be against this book while the others praise it. While I do not like Dan Corner's ministry approach (in that he could be a lot more loving), and I do not like some of his other odd beliefs, he does speak truth for the most part on sin and salvation.

BJorkBloggen's ministry also believes this way, too.

The prodigal son went from being alive, to lost, to alive again – Luke 15

There are other small ministeries who believe this way, as well. But truth is not won by a popularity contest. In fact, we know that narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it (and not many) (See: Matthew 7:14). The Parable of the Prodigal Son is speaking in spiritual terms when the son was said to be “dead” and “alive again.” This same truth is told to us in James 5:19-20. Both of these truths has no explanation given by you or others here that makes any sense.
 
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Servus

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As for the second title a Christian going from being alive, to lost, to alive again - isn't a unique view, unless it's happened. Your everytime a born again Christian believer has a sinful thought he spiritually dies and loses his salvation, like God is constantly flipping a light switch, is apparently unique to you and Dan Corner. Unless even Dan Corner doesn't take it to that extreme. I understand your worry over carnal christians thinking they can live like the devil and still be saved, but I think you've gone a bit overboard in trying to combat it.
 
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#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
 
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You also falsely assume that being born again must happen a second time again if a believer goes prodigal and they need to be made alive again spiritually. Being born again spiritually yet again is something you are assuming into what the Bible teaches in Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32, and James 5:19-21 when the Bible does not specifically say otherwise. We simply don't know what happens. What we do know is that a believer can go from spiritual life, to death, and then back to being alive again. It's a fact of the Bible you are ignoring. I believe you are ignoring this truth because it is a truth you don't like or prefer.
 
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Servus

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No, I think there's a difference between someone ending their belief and leaving their salvation, or wanting to live like the devil and be saved, and a born again Christian believer dying spiritually and losing their salvation every time they have a sinful thought. Like you said, only you and one other person (maybe) holds this extreme view.
 
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You can keep giving your opinion until you are blue in the face, but it really does not change what the Bible says in Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32, and James 5:19-20. You have to give us an alternative explanation on these verses that makes sense in light of God's Word in order to refute the basic and plain reading of these verses. You have to use the context, and or cross references that supports an alternative explanation that aligns with basic logic and how things are normally read.
 
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For example: Do you believe Adam died physically or spiritually the day he ate of the wrong tree?

God said to Adam:
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2:17).

Paul says:

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12).

Does being in Jesus Christ give us just physical life only or spiritual life?

Think. In Genesis 3: The devil told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the wrong tree. In other words, the devil was trying to deceive Eve that by the breaking of just one command would not lead to her death. But it did. The devil is pushing this same lie today. Disobey God's commands and you will not die.
 
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Us who? You and Dan Corner? I don't need to come up with an alternative view because long existing orthodox views will suffice.
 
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Us who? You and Dan Corner? I don't need to come up with an alternative view because long existing orthodox views will suffice.

Truth is not determined by a popularlity contest. Again, Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it (Matthew 7:14). I think it is best I move on from talking with you. You offer no alternative explanations with God's Word to prove your position in that you are correct. So until you do, there is no benefit to our conversations. The Bible is the basis for our faith, and not our opinions.
 
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