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It seems to me you reduced it from apostasy to having a sinful thought. When you asked if a Christian has a lustful thought, and gets hit by a bus before he confesses it, is he saved? It seems to me you think the answer is no. From what I recall, you said as much in another thread. That would mean every time a Christian sins, they become unsaved and have to be born again.
The way I figure it if a Christian has to confess each sin to get their salvation back, to be born again, again, the whole process would have to be repeated each time.
All the terminology used --"they chose hell", "it is not God's fault", etc-- is just another way to put it, I suppose, but the Bible says because they have not believed, which can be taken to imply several different things. In one way of looking at it, man does indeed choose hell, by rejecting Christ. But John 3:18 says he was already condemned.
The word foreknowledge doesn't mean foresight, unless foresight also means what God knowingly causes
--not what merely happens by chance or by someone else's sovereignty. How could God NOT know? After all, He CAUSED it. God is not an unwitting victim of the future.
Now, to your question, I agree, we are obligated not to resist the Spirit. Are you saying that counters what I say there?
I quote this last because I hope you can see John's construction here: the one who keeps Christ's commands can be known to know Christ. Conversely, if one does not keep Christ's commands he does not know him. John shows that the works is evidence of, not the cause of, belonging to Christ or being in Christ...
Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:
Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...
- "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
- “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
- “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
- “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
- "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
- “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
- “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
- “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
- “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
- “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
- “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
- “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
- “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
- “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
- “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
- “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
- “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
- “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).
Side Note:
Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.
Calvinism agrees with Galatians 6:7-10. I don't see how you think it doesn't, except by YOUR extrapolating Calvinism to say otherwise. The Elect will indeed finally be in Heaven. That does not mean they have a ticket to ride and need not work. Because, as I have repeated, God is not mocked, and without works, faith is dead. Calvinism disputes none of that. Why do you persist in posing this strawman to knock down? Do you feel you haven't yet done a worthy job of knocking him down?
You said:The Elect (and there are none who have a full comprehension of the Gospel) can be found in the most odd places --not where you or I might think. Of course they can be deceived, and reap according to what they sow, yet God brings them out, and pays their debt. If the supposed 'elect' one lives without works, he has deceived himself, and is not saved, not elect. This really isn't complicated.
You said:This too, I've already explained. A plain reading such as you should appreciate, says simply that if we sow to the Spirit we will OF THE SPIRIT reap life everlasting. Where does this depart from Calvinism? Calvinism insists on works!
So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc.Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:
Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...
- "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
- “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
- “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
- “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
- "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
- “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
- “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
- “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
- “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
- “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
- “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
- “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
- “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
- “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
- “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).
- “Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This plays in nicely with this verse: And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19).
- “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).
- “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12).
Side Note:
Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.
These verses do not accomplish the task of the heavy lifting you seek.
Paul’s declaration is clear, unequivocal, and easy to comprehend when he said, “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” Romans 10.
Yes, the above results in salvation. Logically, this can be reduced to a condition of: If X, then Y. X, therefore Y. As a matter of fact, this is exactly how Paul phrased his remarks, as a condition.
X=“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.”
Y=“you will be saved;”
The logical operation of conditionals. If X, then Y. X, therefore, Y.
If X (if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead”), then Y (you will be saved;”).
John, at the altar and turning his life to Jesus, says, “Jesus is Lord, and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead,” “John is saved.” There is X, John did X. Therefore, there is Y, John is saved.
At best all you’ve done in the post above is made the argument salvation can be perhaps volunatarily abandoned or voluntarily relinquished. Now a life in Christ will reflect the salvation given amd received by a life transformed from a life in slavery to sins of the flesh to freedom in Christ and a life lived pleasing to the Spirit.
You verses and post not cast aspersions upon the notion of salvation by faith. Your verses focusing upon perhaps a salvation given upon to live a life according to the flesh and sinful nature.
Saved Christians still slip up and commit adultery and murder, but God's OK with with that as long as we repent after we commit every grievous sin.
Paul did say that he does that which he hates (sin) and does not do that which he knows to be right. So he claims that his sin nature rules his life..
I hope I have understood you properly, I don't want to misrepresent what you proclaimed.
So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc.
Respectfully, no you do not believe that.
Either “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED” or SOME will call on the name of the lord and NOT BE SAVED because they did not do [insert something else here].
Salvation is either monergistic and 100% of God, or it is NOT (making it synergistic). Looking at the “whole council of God’s word” does not negate any clearly articulated truth of God’s word.
Is condemning the guilty for what they have done somehow not “righteous”?If God is a righteous and impartial Judge, as Scripture teaches, how is it you feel God can show partiality in judgment - favoring some by giving them faith through regeneration, and condemning the rest without any chance at all?
This particular Bible doctrine has divided the Church for many centuries. There are good arguments on both sides, so many decide to sit on the fence but I don't think any denomination allows it's members to sit on the fence. They force their members to take their side side or face ex communication.It's like when you are trapped on the side of the cliff and somebody throws you a rope to pull you up. They ask you to hold on to the rope as they pull you up. Do you boast in how you saved yourself in this kind of scenario? Surely not. But yet, you had to do your part in order to be saved, as well. God does not force salvation upon anyone. That would make this life totally meaningless and without purpose.
The problem is that you have not proven with Scripture that the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20 is not talking about how a saved believer can die spiritually via by sin or going prodigal and then they can come back to the Lord to the saving of their soul again.
Is condemning the guilty for what they have done somehow not “righteous”?
If God condemns all of the guilty for their guilt, where is the partiality?
John 3:16-18 explains that some are not judged and why. It also explains that the rest stand already judged and why (with John 3:19-20 describing the judgement).
Romans 11:6My Pentecostal friend would disagree with you.
Believers can fall away.
Anyways, look at 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if one is not living godly they don't have grace according to these two pieces of Scripture. Very simple to understand. I should not need another verse to prove my case, but I have more on my list. Paul also says that a person can deny God by a lack of works, too (Titus 1:16). See, works are necessary to prove that Christ is in us. Faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? Even the demons believe and tremble. So works are a part of salvation. For they are a part of the faith.
No. I am not saying a Christian will normally slip up and commit adultery and murder as the norm... no. But if that rare odd Christian does happen to commit these sins, they can seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and be changed again whereby they would not do that. Christians can go prodigal and fall into a state of spiritual death whereby they would need to repent an be restored again to spiritual life again. King David committed adultery and murder and he was forgiven of these sins. But a believer can lust after a woman without intending to do so and it is just as equally condemning as regular adultery (See: Matthew 5:28-30). So a Christian needs to live a holy life as a part of God's plan of salvation after they are saved by God's grace. If not, then one can live like the devil and be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. But we know that even the demons believe and yet we know they are not saved.
It's like when you are trapped on the side of the cliff and somebody throws you a rope to pull you up. They ask you to hold on to the rope as they pull you up. Do you boast in how you saved yourself in this kind of scenario? Surely not. But yet, you had to do your part in order to be saved, as well. God does not force salvation upon anyone. That would make this life totally meaningless and without purpose.
This particular Bible doctrine has divided the Church for many centuries. There are good arguments on both sides, so many decide to sit on the fence but I don't think any denomination allows it's members to sit on the fence. They force their members to take their side side or face ex communication.
I used to believe in the joint effort salvation model, but I ended up taking the "saved by grace alone through faith alone" model. My church teaches election and predestination, for which there are around 120 Bible verses to support it which is far more than those which seem to support the joint effort view.
I don't expect anyone who holds a to a different view to agree with me, some of the most learned Bible scholars and Theologians hold to opposing views on this question so I don't expect any ordinary garden variety Christians to agree with each other.
Most Christians believe it comes down to personal choice, they believe the Bible offers many different choices and many different paths to God and people from different cultures and ethnic groups have a different set of views.
The most famous Bible verse used to be John 3:16 and now it's Matthew 7:1 the modern Church teaches us not to judge anyone. The Pope is pushing for all faiths to join together, he believes every religion leads to God.
The thing with the rope scenario though is there's a difference between grabbing hold and being pulled up, and having to climb up the rope to be saved. I believe Dan1988 was addressing the latter scenario when he wrote:"So in summary, salvation is a joint effort. Jesus did His bit on the cross and we need to finish the job by being good citizens and paying our taxes etc."
It seems like the Holy Spirit is being left out regarding this. How do you see the Holy Spirit playing a part in this? Like if a Christian goes prodigal and falls into a state of spiritual death, how is it they come about to repenting to be restored to spiritual life? Do they do that completely on their own, or does it come about through the Holy Spirit prompting them?
Hebrews 5:32 says, “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”
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