Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

atpollard · Feb 21, 2021

[Romans 10:8-13 NASB]
But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Tough call, do I believe the Apostle and the promise of God ... or do I believe that I need to help save myself by doing enough good works to maintain my salvation? Decisions, decisions.

I think that I will believe Paul, trust God and let the good words flow naturally from a grateful heart (with no pressure to earn God’s love).

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
Since it's virtually impossible for someome to not have any good works, why is this even an issue?

There are two issues. First, I have run into Christians who say that you can mow down a crowd with a submachine gun and they would still be saved. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality in Jude 1:4. George Sodini is a prime example of this. But obviously they don't believe any works are necessary. Second, the issue is about whether or not works (the works of God done through a believer) plays a part in the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation for the believer's life. Do these works save? If you believe they don't save, then your teaching can influence others to think they do not have to do anything for God but just to believe on Him for salvation. For not everybody is like you. Remember, there are even atheists who do good works, too. But that does not mean they are saved. We also learn of certain believers who did wonderful works in the Lord's name but Jesus told them to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity, too (Matthew 7:23). He did not know them because they justified sin or a sin and still be saved type of belief that can lead others into turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?

So you're saying we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

atpollard said:
[Romans 10:8-13 NASB]
But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Tough call, do I believe the Apostle and the promise of God ... or do I believe that I need to help save myself by doing enough good works to maintain my salvation? Decisions, decisions.

I think that I will believe Paul, trust God and let the good words flow naturally from a grateful heart (with no pressure to earn God’s love).

I believe this passage just fine. But we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word, though. That is what this thread is about. Look honestly at the verses in the OP and read them and believe them vs. what popular Christianity says.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

klutedavid · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Many tell me in Christianity that one can sin and still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus. Paul says one says that one is proud if they do not agree with the doctrine according to godliness. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble.

Not sure of your sources for the information your posting. I have never in my life heard any Christian say; that a Christian can sin and that is an acceptable lifestyle. I hear the extreme opposite and no matter which church organization I attend. The holiness fraternity controls virtually all churches these days.

You said, 'Many tell me in Christianity that one can sin and still be saved'. Everyone sins and that is regardless of the theology they adhere to. If a sinless life is the requirement for access to heaven, then everyone fails automatically. You sin, I sin, everyone sins, anyone who denies this is a liar.

We are saved by the blood of Christ, by the grace of God, by the reconciliation that Christ established for us. No amount of self sanctification is going to make an inch of difference, as far as salvation is concerned.

Unless you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved.

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
There are two issues. First, I have run into Christians who say that you can mow down a crowd with a submachine gun and they would still be saved. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality in Jude 1:4. George Sodini is a prime example of this. But obviously they don't believe any works are necessary. Second, the issue is about whether or not works (the works of God done through a believer) plays a part in the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation for the believer's life. Do these works save? If you believe they don't save, then your teaching can influence others to think they do not have to do anything for God but just to believe on Him for salvation. For not everybody is like you. Remember, there are even atheists who do good works, too. But that does not mean they are saved. We also learn of certain believers who did wonderful works in the Lord's name but Jesus told them to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity, too (Matthew 7:23). He did not know them because they justified sin or a sin and still be saved type of belief that can lead others into turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

What you're describing is Gnosticism. Do you think Gnosticism is running rampant here on CF?

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?

So you're saying the Bible says we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

klutedavid said:
Not sure of your sources for the information your posting. I have never in my life heard any Christian say; that a Christian can sin and that is an acceptable lifestyle. I hear the extreme opposite and no matter which church organization I attend. The holiness fraternity controls virtually all churches these days.

It's a trojan horse. For example: John MacArthur appears to be for Lordship Salvation but he also double speaks and says one can also sin and still be saved. I have searched and I have not found any churches that truly believe in living holy except a very very very very small few of them. It's about as many as you can count on one hand.

You said:
You said, 'Many tell me in Christianity that one can sin and still be saved'. Everyone sins and that is regardless of the theology they adhere to. If a sinless life is the requirement for access to heaven, then everyone fails automatically. You sin, I sin, everyone sins, anyone who denies this is a liar.

You just proved my point. If everyone sins, then there is no holiness fraternity that you refer to.

As for 1 John 1:8:

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,
"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

You said:
We are saved by the blood of Christ, by the grace of God, by the reconciliation that Christ established for us. No amount of self sanctification is going to make an inch of difference, as far as salvation is concerned.

Unless you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved.

1 John 1:7. It basically says that you have to walk in the light for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of all sin. What is walking in the light? By the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, we know that walking in the light is loving your brother. So if we are not loving our brother we are not of God (1 John 3:10). Somebody not of God is not saved obviously.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
What you're describing is Gnosticism. Do you think Gnosticism is running rampant here on CF?

klutedavid said:
Not sure of your sources for the information your posting. I have never in my life heard any Christian say; that a Christian can sin and that is an acceptable lifestyle. I hear the extreme opposite and no matter which church organization I attend. The holiness fraternity controls virtually all churches these days.

You said, 'Many tell me in Christianity that one can sin and still be saved'. Everyone sins and that is regardless of the theology they adhere to. If a sinless life is the requirement for access to heaven, then everyone fails automatically. You sin, I sin, everyone sins, anyone who denies this is a liar.

We are saved by the blood of Christ, by the grace of God, by the reconciliation that Christ established for us. No amount of self sanctification is going to make an inch of difference, as far as salvation is concerned.

Unless you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved.

There are different levels of justifying sin. Just one sin can lead to a destructive course. Just look at Adam. Look at Ananias and Sapphira.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

Folks are getting off task here. Please read the verses slowly in the OP. Do not read what you want to read into those verses. Just read them and believe them and ask yourself, have you been told something that is not in line with what Paul actually said? Can these verses really mean what they say plainly?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
So you're saying we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily.

What I say does not matter. What the Bible says is what does matter. Again, I encourage you and others to look at what Paul said in the verses that I posted in the OP. If folks are to really look at what he was saying, he was not teaching popular Christianity that is known in most churches today that says that works do not play a part in our salvation. They say that works of faith do not save in any way. Yet, Galatians 6:8-9 and other verses by Paul teaches otherwise. Paul taught that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and then he listed various sins to show us. Paul is saying that the way you live is tied to the eternal state. Jesus taught the same thing.

Mark Quayle · Feb 21, 2021

setst777 said:
setst RE: No Christian sect that I am aware of denies the Sovereignty of God.

The question is, does ones understanding of God's Sovereignty harmonize with all the Scriptures in context.

setst RE: Does God reveal what He wants as regards the Gospel Revelation?

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in
keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings

by the command of the eternal God,

so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith —

27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

setst RE: God accomplishes this as we faithfully work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

If we believe in Lord Jesus, then we will follow him (Matthew 28:19-20).

As we follow Jesus, we are obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit of God so that God may lead us (by His Spirit) to do His good work (Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25) whom we receive by faith so that God may do His work in us.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Writing to the Church in Galatia
7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

If we do not resist God's Spirit who indwells us by faith, but instead live and walk by the Spirit (abide in Him), then God will do all His work in us.

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106:32 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4:30-31 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

Hebrews 10:29 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much severe punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Therefore, for God to lead us by His Spirit for good, then we are obligated to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who indwells us by an obedient faith:

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

Blessings

I'm not sure if you wrote all that to counter what I wrote or not. I'm in agreement, unless you mean to imply that what I said is wrong. Apparently many who post here do that --assuming that the verses they quote or things they say that are common to Christian Orthodoxy somehow extrapolate to counter what Reformed Theology says, or that what Reformed Theology says extrapolates to counter Scripture et al. Reformed Theologians do by no means deny the necessity of works. (Or the big one- they do NOT deny choice nor the will of the individual.)

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?

So you're saying the Bible says we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
So you're saying the Bible says we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily.

What I say does not matter. What the Bible says is what does matter. Again, I encourage you and others to look at what Paul said in the verses that I posted in the OP. If folks are to really look at what he was saying, he was not teaching popular Christianity that is known in most churches today that says that works do not play a part in our salvation. They say that works of faith do not save in any way. Yet, Galatians 6:8-9 and other verses by Paul teaches otherwise. Paul taught that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and then he listed various sins to show us. Paul is saying that the way you live is tied to the eternal state. Jesus taught the same thing.

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What I say does not matter. What the Bible says is what does matter. Again, I encourage you and others to look at what Paul said in the verses that I posted in the OP. If folks are to really look at what he was saying, he was not teaching popular Christianity that is known in most churches today that says that works do not play a part in our salvation. They say that works of faith do not save in any way. Yet, Galatians 6:8-9 and other verses by Paul teaches otherwise. Paul taught that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and then he listed various sins to show us. Paul is saying that the way you live is tied to the eternal state. Jesus taught the same thing.

Does the Bible say that we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I'm not sure if you wrote all that to counter what I wrote or not. I'm in agreement, unless you mean to imply that what I said is wrong. Apparently many who post here do that --assuming that the verses they quote or things they say that are common to Christian Orthodoxy somehow extrapolate to counter what Reformed Theology says, or that what Reformed Theology says extrapolates to counter Scripture et al. Reformed Theologians do by no means deny the necessity of works. (Or the big one- they do NOT deny choice nor the will of the individual.)

Belief Alone-ism is the issue. Sola Fide. This is saying that all one has to do is believe and they are saved. I know. Calvinism believes a little differently. They believe God saves (regenerates) the believer, and belief (faith) is not something that the believer has the capacity to act upon on their own power.

Anyways, the point here is that works do play a part in our salvation even according to Paul (See: Galatians 6:8-9, Titus 1:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). So Paul did not believe in Belief Alone-ism or those who hold to Sola Fide. Yes, many say that works will manifest themselves as a part of having a true faith, but that sounds contradictory to saying that works do not play a part in salvation and is only in Sola Fide Faith alone and Grace Alone. So if that is the case, then no works are necessary. Period. One can live like the devil and just believe in Jesus and be saved. Do nothing for God and be saved. Many will appear to deny this, but then they turn around and start talking about how everyone sins and they really do not go into detail on what they mean by their sinning. So it is double speak. One cannot be for holy living if one also believes that they can sin and still be saved. There are different levels of justifying sin. Sure, we may not be talking about George Sodini who killed a bunch of people and said that Jesus had forgiven him of this kind of sin. But I have heard places like Gotquestions (a 4 point Calvinist website) say that a Christian can go prodigal into a lifestyle of sin and yet they are still saved while doing so. We are living in the last days as 2 Timothy 3:1-9 and many do not seem to care about how sin can destroy a person spiritually. They think... Jesus did it all so just believe in Him, and don't worry too much about your sin. This is not biblical in my view.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
Does the Bible say that we are born again numerous times. Perhaps even daily?

You can start another thread on that topic if you like. This thread is about what I posted in the OP.

Servus · Feb 21, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
You can start another thread on that topic if you like. This thread is about what I posted in the OP.

In this thread you posted:

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?

Does the Bible say that we are born again numerous times? Perhaps even daily?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 21, 2021

MMXX said:
In this thread you posted:

“Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?” ~ Bible Highlighter

Does the Bible say that we are born again numerous times? Perhaps even daily?

But you didn't answer the question. Is he saved? Yes, or no? By your question you imply that he is saved, but that is not a straight “yes,” or “no” answer.

Please give me a straight “yes,” or “no” answer to the question.

Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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