freeindeed2
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I was able to accomplish switching things up many times, but ALWAYS to the beating of the 'protest drums' (oops, didn't mean to say 'drums' here:o...it was a figure of speach).
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I was able to accomplish switching things up many times, but ALWAYS to the beating of the 'protest drums' (oops, didn't mean to say 'drums' here:o...it was a figure of speach).Even if people were flocking to our churches I do not see mega churches as the answer, as the church grows you start a new church not flock to the existing church to increase the membership from 600 to 2000, a church of 2000 could make at least 4 or even 8 churches.
I have mixed feelings on the whole 'church planting' thing. Why do we need 10 separate, small, struggling Adventist churches in a city when 2 larger ones would suffice?
I like huge churches. It is a powerful force for influence in the community and it raises our profile in the area exponentially.
Maybe its an American thing you like to supersize things? -lol
Actually, I'm Canadian.
Adventism can be pretty formal and over structured some members would have a heart attack if say we decided to have Sabbath School all day or something.
I hear you. You know, I am totally NOT a morning person. I once suggested to the church board that we hold church service Sabbath afternoons instead of in the morning for those who despise mornings. I made the point that there would be a much better turn out for Sabbath School, because people aren't dragging themselves out of bed, bleary-eyed and crabby at the God-forsaken hour of 7:30 a.m.
Well, as you can imagine, that went over about as well as a lead balloon. Cries of protest were raised.
Having church in the morning is not Biblically based mind you. It's not even remotely scriptural.It's all just tradition, the way things 'have always been done.' No one even questions it, it's just accepted.
Actually, I would prefer Friday evening services myself, as I am most alert and 'on' at night. But, that's just too radical a concept for some.
First, I love the "Borg" reference. Awesome.
Second, from my observation and experience, it goes beyond the problem you illustrated above. It is not ONLY that people are heavily influenced and taught but not convicted, though I'm sure that goes on as well. It's that those who do this heavy influencing and "teaching" seem to want to BE conviction for others. There is no room given for God to work, and no allowing for the possibilities discussed in principle in Romans 14. Rather, the various stripes of theological bully rule the roost, and want to play "Heavy Handed Holy Spirit" with everyone else, browbeating conviction into them through fear and mental intimidation. The natural spiritual process is thwarted and in some cases wholly aborted. There is no opportunity for growth precisely because everything is a freaking foregone conclusion: "this is the only right way to see X." It's impossible to grow organically, in a spiritual sense, where the outcome is fixed; it inhibits the process of getting there. The search for truth thus ends up inevitably being replaced by a series of fixed, immobile propositions to be assimilated by rote mechanism and which ultimately MUST be accepted "or else". People simply CANNOT grow spiritually as whole people under such a configuration. It's a recipe for disaster.
Justification and rationalization of cherished sins is compromise and nothing else. I'm not saying you have to be this or that to be saved, the Bible and the One who inspired it is. Don't listen to anything I say, listen to what God and the Bible tells you. If the Lord convicts you to walk a certain way and if you refuse then you may have a problem later on. That is between you and your creator.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
And what is worse and most stultifying is this, NightEternal: WE ASSUME THAT IF THEY DO NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS *WE* HAVE ADOPTED, THAT THEY ARE THEREFORE DECEIVED -- AND HENCE DECEIVERS WHO HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER US BUT ARE ONLY SEEKING TO DESTROY OUR SO-CALLED "FAITH" -- AS IF FAITH DEPENDED ON ROMANS 14 ISSUES IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! The one thing we COULD conceivably all come to the same conclusion on is to all unite on the platform of Romans 14 and once and for all STOP trying to nail into stone some one-size-fits-all dictate as to what constitutes GOD'S view on the matter and ACCEPT that GOD'S VIEW *IS* ROMANS 14 for crying out loud!!!!!!!This is the bottom line. and things only get further complicated when one does manage to forge thier own journey for 'truth' and thier conclusions lead them to different conclusions than the accepted party line.
We assume that everyone who studies the Bible will come to the same conclusion regarding jewellry.
Sorry, they do not.
We assume that everyone who studies the Bible will come to the same conclusions regarding vegetarianism.
Sorry, they do not.
We assume that everyone who studies the Bible will come to the same conclusions regarding worship styles, theater-going, drama, etc.
Sorry, they do not.
Many in the church need to realize that the outcome is NOT fixed. And when that reality plays itself out over and over again, that is when sides are taken and the battle begins. And those of us who actually believe the Bible does not forbid the wearning of jewellry are pelted with Joe Crews pamphlets.
Like what Joe Crews believes is going to even remotely change our minds on the matter.
We assume that everyone who studies the Bible will come to the same conclusions regarding {edited here-->} {pick your issue}.
Sorry, they do not.
No, but if they cannot change your mind they will settle for this: TORTURING YOUR SPIRIT AND MOLESTING YOUR CONSCIENCE.Many in the church need to realize that the outcome is NOT fixed. And when that reality plays itself out over and over again, that is when sides are taken and the battle begins. And those of us who actually believe the Bible does not forbid the wearning of jewellry are pelted with Joe Crews pamphlets.
Like what Joe Crews believes is going to even remotely change our minds on the matter.
I'm not here to spread stories and rumours. I'm engaging in this discussion to point out the problems I have either experienced firsthand or observed. I am not interested in singling out specific persons who can then always be readily dismissed as "the few bad apples" one is supposed to overlook in favor of the general trends because I have seen the general trends as well. In fact I've seen the stagnation, mold and rot inherent in the structure itself; it is not even a matter of individual "bad apples" (though yes, they are out there). It is a combined ontological and epistemological issue that proves problematic to even address because of the filters that are so firmly embedded concerning anything one might use TO address it (e.g. the Scriptures for starters). I think Jesus said it best -- and left a hefty cluebrick behind which is NOT suited for those in glass houses -- when He said, "What sayeth the Law? How readest thou?" but His wonderfully wise subtlety is yet another thing of beauty lost on the dry bones of the mindset mired in literalist filters.I have heard all sorts of "horror stories" from both sides--have you ever noticed that they are short of such things as names, dates and places? They claim it is because they didn't get permission to tell the story--well then, why are you DOING IT!?!
So Conklin, assuming that both parties have studied with a 'pure conscience' (whatever that means), how do you explain the different conclusions arrived at?
How do you explain the fact that two people can look at the same texts dealing with wine, and one arrives at abstinence and the other arives at moderation?
Both sides have thier proof texts to back up thier position, both sincerely believe they are right.
Same texts and word studies, two totally different conclusions.
I know many SDA's who have no gripe one way or the other in this matter and have no desire to drink alcohol even in moderation, but thier studies have led them to conclude that the Bible does not teach abstinence.
This could apply to a number of things BTW, not just wine. Tithe for example.
And this is the problem those of us who see what's going on run into whenever we try to tell someone else who doesn't see about it. It always ends up going THERE when THERE is just another red herring, straw man, NON ISSUE. You are still drowning in your static foregone conclusions which are prisons and strongholds and falsehoods themselves!!!
You assume that your understanding of Scripture is the sum total of the revelation of God, it can go no further, there can be no deviation, and you stalemate yourselves with it -- and the more someone tries to show you REALITY the more stubbornly you dig in your heels and refuse to budge. Clinging in desperate FEAR! FEAR to consider the tiny little maybe, maybe just maybe you don't have the FINAL WORD on all of it. MAYBE JUST MAYBE some of the things (I do NOT say ALL) you have cherished for 156 years are nothing but the fallacies of untempered youthful zeal and uneducated literalism.
If you REFUSE to see, there is nothing more that can be done; your institution will perish in its ineffectuality, and none shall come to your aid, because you reject each that tries out of hand with the same stale arguments you have used to construct the dead system that doesn't work.You are so buried in your black-and-white thinking that you IMAGINE any other way to be "compromise" -- and therefore "dirty" -- and so you imprison yourselves, and shut up the gates of Heaven, refusing to enter yet not permitting anyone else to pass either!!
It's madness, I tell you. MADNESS. No wonder Jesus called this sort blind guides!!!
I don't know who you know.
You are SORELY mistaken!! Because, news flash, you do NOT embrace absolute truth as the Bible teaches it to begin with. You BELIEVE yourself to be doing so, and according to your limited perception and experience, so it seems to yourself. But you cannot even HEAR yourself in these statements? You are making YOUR mind, and YOUR understanding of scripture, the measure of truth here, and I am so totally NOT buying that!!!! What I am concerned with is precisely this, and it is a disease rampant in Adventism NOT because Adventists are necessarily more arrogant or myopic than other Christians, but because, like I said, the seeds of this stagnation are inherent in the structure itself. It is virtually INEVITABLE that anyone entering the SDA church WILL be taught to perceive and think of things precisely in this same fashion, thus effectively CEMENTING and TREPANING the blinders onto the sides of their heads and never able to step outside themselves for a breath of OBJECTIVITY!!!!!!!!I have agreed totally with Moriah that our church family needs to handle our new converts with care and avoid conflicts which is what Paul is basically saying in this chapter. However, unless I am mistaken I feel that she is concerned more with the fact that I embrace absolute truth as the Bible teaches it.
In fact, you are familiar with two: Sophia and Tall. Both are individuals who have no desire to drink alcohol, yet Sophia has posted her studies on this forum which led her to believe the Bible does not teach abstinence.
So, the argument that it is a moral issue with her is no good, as she does not drink. The arguement that she did not honestly study the issue properly is also no good, because she clearly showed she had studied the issue out in detail.
In fact, from what I have seen, Sophia is more Biblically versed than some pastors I have encountered.
You are SORELY mistaken!! Because, news flash, you do NOT embrace absolute truth as the Bible teaches it to begin with.
You BELIEVE yourself to be doing so, and according to your limited perception and experience, so it seems to yourself. But you cannot even HEAR yourself in these statements? You are making YOUR mind, and YOUR understanding of scripture, the measure of truth here, and I am so totally NOT buying that!!!!
What I am concerned with is precisely this, and it is a disease rampant in Adventism NOT because Adventists are necessarily more arrogant or myopic than other Christians, but because, like I said, the seeds of this stagnation are inherent in the structure itself. It is virtually INEVITABLE that anyone entering the SDA church WILL be taught to perceive and think of things precisely in this same fashion, thus effectively CEMENTING and TREPANING the blinders onto the sides of their heads and never able to step outside themselves for a breath of OBJECTIVITY!!!!!!!!
NightEternal, help me, can't you please explain this better than I am doing??? I cannot bear it!!
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