Pastor leaves Adventism

Moriah, I hate to say this but your long post of examples doesn't seem to support this statement:

"You seem to think it is possible to erase your own mind, its limitations, and subjectivity entirely from the equation of faith and comprehension of Scripture so that your comprehension somehow equates to that of God Himself, but you are deceived."

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

OK this is by no means comprehensive but just a few examples. His statements are in black and my comments are in RED.

Post #153:
Some of our seasoned sisters can castigate a new lady member by coming on too strong about our position on this. I believe in most cases we need to allow the Holy Spirit to convict these folks as they grow in the faith. We are not at the same place in our walk with the Lord. It takes time to get where the Lord will eventually lead us.

The presupposition of a one-size-fits-all foregone conclusion concerning WHERE God will supposedly lead EVERYONE, ALL ALIKE, is a misapprehension not only about the nature of the faith journey itself, let alone its goals and purposes, but about the nature of God Himself. It indicates a mindset where one's own views about what Scripture teaches have been conflated with the postulate of the precise mind of God Himself, and even in so doing, limits the conceptualization of the nature of the mind of God to something far narrower and binary than most human minds stretch.

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I think it's interesting that you think the church uses a "one size fits all" methodology to basically whip it's members into a shape that is appropriate for an adventist. Let's get frank and totally honest here. Living and adopting a Christian walk involves changes. Christ asked us to take up our cross' and follow Him.

That request is symbolic of us dying to self and what ever that entails. Paul said he died daily to self and was transformed from the old man to the new by the power of Christ. When we become saved we change. Not all will change to the same degree as others. The Holy Spirit will convict His children in His own time. I don't think we need to sweat the small stuff. The bottom line is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and if that is done in a genuine manner and you use the Bible as your guide the rest of all of this stuff will fall in line as the Holy Spirit convicts it to.

Post #158:
Justification and rationalization of cherished sins is compromise and nothing else. I'm not saying you have to be this or that to be saved, the Bible and the One who inspired it is. Don't listen to anything I say, listen to what God and the Bible tells you. If the Lord convicts you to walk a certain way and if you refuse ...

The automatic assumption that speaking of the possibility of life outside the one-size-fits-all-foregone-conclusion constitutes "justification and rationalization of cherished sin" is not just "telling" but a classic mechanism to reinforce the control structure by having it appear one cannot step outside the closed loop of the control system.

The "I'm not saying ... [BUT] ... the Bible and [God] is [sic]..." is a "double-bind" cover for the equation of the two in the mind. It makes appear as if separate and dichotomous that which is in reality one and the same: the author's perception of what Scripture says IS what Scripture (and God through Scripture) says, as far as both the author and these constructs are concerned. The problem is, these two are NOT identical -- the same is true for any one of us and OUR perceptions of what Scripture states as well. There IS an objective postulate concerning the meanings placed therein by the Author of the Word (the Living Word), as well as a method of parabolic approach toward that objective postulate which we may ever draw nearer to but never entirely contain in ourselves. But to presume to state unequivocally "THIS IS what Scripture states" is an arrogance unseemly for any of us. To remain within truth and authenticity, we may each state only "this is what I UNDERSTAND Scripture to be saying." Therein lieth humility.

Keep in mind also that his statements are in the context of a system where one-size-fits-all is a foregone conclusion, and programmatic structures are in place to foist said 'convictions' upon people within that structure. The vaguely implied threat intoned at the end is a classic element of this type of structure designed to reinforce control over the mind by foisting an inward tyranny upon the conscience and a simultaneous perception this comes from God along with a FEAR to consider it might have another source (such as human psychological control mechanisms).

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Your rhetoric here is impressive but the bottom line is this. Do you accept what the Bible teaches you to do? The language of the Bible is very clear on the major issues that will save us. I may not have it all right as far as my interpretation goes. I study every day and I pray for guidance to have a proper hermeneutic of scriptures. I do think I can understand basic english.

I don't believe that I have used "a classic mechanism to reinforce the control structure" to keep adventists inside a so called loop of compliance as you have intimated. We either follow the Lamb of God or we rebel against Him it's that simple. You may feel you can follow Him by drinking alcohol, having illicit sexual affiairs, listening to hard core rock and roll music, etc. ( these are just examples not accusations ) and you have a complete right to go on believing that. God gave you a free will to choose which way you will walk. However, not only would you be totally wrong in your belief but you need to realize that just because your choice of lifestyle may be different than what the church recommends does not mean it's a stale stagnant and dying organization. God did call us His peculiar people. Not everyone will fit into God's plan of salvation for His people. Choices are everything and they can mean life or death in the end.

Post #174:
I have agreed totally with Moriah that our church family needs to handle our new converts with care and avoid conflicts which is what Paul is basically saying in this chapter. However, unless I am mistaken I feel that she is concerned more with the fact that I embrace absolute truth as the Bible teaches it. That there is truth beyond the Bible that those like myself seem to refuse to see.

The first statement needs no explanation if you read my comments above. It is a bald-faced, blatant declaration on the part of the author that his views of what Scripture states are one and the same as what Scripture actually states, thus essentially a claim to possess perfect unquestionable revelation of the mind of God and contain that in his own limited perceptions. Blasphemy in my estimation, though I do not mean that in a hostile or accusatory sense; most men are unaware that this is blasphemy of the highest order and I believe the Most High forgives their ignorance, even winks at it for a time, until through such moments as these He challenges them to open their eyes and put a sock in it. (I'm being cheeky here but not entirely unserious and certainly not without a point.)

The second statement bolded simply evinces the presence of further control mechanisms. The automatic assignment of what one does not see to being "extrabiblical" revelation of some sort is designed to simultaneously reinforce the control structures as well as dismiss and invalidate anything which threatens them by automatically assigning it to potentially untrustworthy origin, even the demonic or the anathema. This is magical thinking, hoping the intrusive "key" element which threatens the firm grasp of the slave-fetters will go "poof" and disappear. Doomsday cults frequently utilize similar methods on their adherents as well, to keep logic and sane rational thought at bay from breaking the programming.

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Can we get specific please? Let's talk Bible shall we? Please provide a text that we can discuss absolute truth as I see it then you can pick it apart as you see it. Other wise this is a case study in rhetorical rambling. BTW, I'll pick one if you don't want to. Let me know.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

TrustAndObey said:

Jim, I enjoy your posts very much.

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God Bless you sister. Don't hesitate to thwack me if I need it . I am praying to make proper posts without using an invective or instigative tone.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Ok, let me give a text to consider.

Matt 7:21-23
21." Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

22." Many will say to Me on that day, Lord Lord have we not prophecied in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?"

23. " And then I will say to them openly, I never knew you: depart from Me you who act wickedly."

With all my heart I believe that this set of texts contains some absolute truths that cannot be minsconstrued. Let's examine just a few.

1. There will be some who will not be saved who were by all accounts considering themselves to be good Christians.

2. There will be some who will be lost because even though they thought they were doing God's work were actually doing things wrong.

3. Those who will be saved will do the will of the Father.

So what is the will of the Father? In John 3:16 we read that God the Father so loved the world that He gave us His son and that whosoever believed in Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

So what does it really mean "to believe in Jesus Christ?"
Christ said in the Bible that if we loved Him we would do as He commanded us to do. He also told us to keep His commandments. He also said that anyone who would follow Him should take up his cross and follow Him. This is just a small list of things that would entail "believing" in Jesus Christ.

Jesus also said that who ever was born again was a new creation/creature indicating change from an old way of living to a new life.

Please show me where I have blindly misinterpreted this set of texts.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

djconklin said:

Moriah, I hate to say this but your long post of examples doesn't seem to support this statement:

"You seem to think it is possible to erase your own mind, its limitations, and subjectivity entirely from the equation of faith and comprehension of Scripture so that your comprehension somehow equates to that of God Himself, but you are deceived."

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I have no intention of going tit-for-tat with you. You are entitled to your opinion -- your conclusion here merely reflects your own inability to see how they DO support that statement. It does not mean suddenly you are God and you dictate reality and there is no support for it. It simply reveals you fail to recognize it. That is not because it is not there. It is because you aren't able to see it.

Jimlarmore said:

Please provide a text that we can discuss absolute truth as I see it then you can pick it apart as you see it. Other wise this is a case study in rhetorical rambling. BTW, I'll pick one if you don't want to. Let me know.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

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That's the problem here -- you seem to think an axiomatic ontological flaw can be corrected with an examination of competing structures built on top of it. What I am discussing is the foundation, not what one erects upon it, and you want to settle the matter by looking at the structures rather than the basis. I am addressing the basis. We all approach Scripture with certain ontological axioms. Even the attempt to derive ontological axioms from Scripture is merely reflexive in nature. And posturing behind a pretense of dismissiveness is bogus; I do not and will not recognize that as viable or valid, and it will not be permitted to go unchallenged in My presence.

Picking a text and lawyering to death over it is not going to reveal TRUTH. That is not the means by which spiritual truth is ascertained.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

I have no intention of going tit-for-tat with you. You are entitled to your opinion -- your conclusion here merely reflects your own inability to see how they DO support that statement. It does not mean suddenly you are God and you dictate reality and there is no support for it. It simply reveals you fail to recognize it. That is not because it is not there. It is because you aren't able to see it.

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bravo, may I use this in the future if I need it?

Stormy, feel free!

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

Picking a text and lawyering to death over it is not going to reveal TRUTH. That is not the means by which spiritual truth is ascertained.

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My sister,,,, I am just trying to find a way to find out where you are really coming from. You say you want to start with the basics. Ok, let's start with the basics. What is your view of the basics and where do you derive them from?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

NightEternal, those who respect not the Staff and would cast it to the ground are never satisfied until they see the Serpent which permits them to crow, "see? we knew it all along!"

If they do not actually see the Serpent manifest, they will simply claim to anyway. All that matters to some is getting their way, and they don't care how they get it or who they have to bulldoze and crush and bruise and oppress and lie about and provoke and harass and annoy to get it. And they still have the audacity to delude themselves that God approves their course and pats them on the head in the end.

Jimlarmore said:

My sister,,,, I am just trying to find a way to find out where you are really coming from. You say you want to start with the basics. Ok, let's start with the basics. What is your view of the basics and where do you derive them from?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

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Sorry, not "basics" but BASIS. Ontological axioms. Define yours, if you can.

I'm not. If you had been paying any attention, you would see I am fighting the belief that advocates our obedience achieves or maintains our salvation in any way, makes us 'worthy' to stand before God or is the root rather than the fruit of our salvation.

Big, huge difference.

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Yes, there is a big huge difference. However, there are two fallacies running tandem, not just one. The one which you describe here and contrast as being NOT your position, is often used to cover up the other one. The other one is the notion that "obedience" looks exactly the same in every single person and can be mandated as a foregone conclusion and these prefabricated foregone conclusions can then be utilized as some sort of yardstick against which to measure the sincerity of another person's heart and/or the veracity of his walk with God.

I would point the interested seeker to the exchange between Jesus and Peter following the resurrection (last part of the book of John) for some valuable insight in this regard.

"IF I will X for him, WHAT has that to do with THEE? Follow thou ME."

For the record I do not YET count DJConklin amongst that number, but as ever I watch and wait to see how people will conduct themselves and what recurrent patterns said conduct will reveal, as well as what pet hobby horses they end up riding. All are telling, and wisdom is known of Her children.

NightEternal said:

I hear you Moriah. Always the tendency to attrribute 'cherished sin' or some personal defect that is needing to be assuaged. It never dawns on them that we may just simply be convicted on something one way or the other, and there is no personal agenda to justify it to accomodate supposed 'hidden sins'.

What nonsense. I grow very weary of such tactics.

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As I have suggested in other places, the message to the Galatians would be lost on many adventists...

NightEternal said:

What nonsense. I grow very weary of such tactics.

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It helps to be less "invested". There are places on this board where I simply blow a gasket anymore because I am so weary of the repetitive and tiresome nonsense encountered there. I am less "invested" personally in this section, so the type of nonsense here does not unbalance me. Of course if I spend too much time here that might change, so I shall endeavor to be parsimonious in that regard.

Also this is why I refrain from bickering over specific praxes or sharing my "position" on a number of tiny gnats. I prefer to deal with the camels being swallowed.

StormyOne said:

As I have suggested in other places, the message to the Galatians would be lost on many adventists...

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HAH!

Let alone the voice of the Seven Thunders ...

Must go do some actual paycheck earning stuff folks. Back later.