Pagans

Andoverpolo · Apr 16, 2007

Hi - first off - Hello there,

So, I just learned an interesting thing the other day... apparently there are pagans still. I'm not sure what that term means exactly, I was under the impression it was perjorative but some college girl introduced herself to me as a "pagan" which surprised me.

Right, well anyway, what precisely is a "pagan" or is that just another word for Wicca? And who do you pray to?

Doesn't it kind of bother you that there are regular bus tours to the top of Mount Olympus and nobody has bumped into Zeus or Hera yet? Or... Charlemagne chopped down the sacred tree with an axe?

Seems kind of debunked doesn't it? Are there interpretations about these events?

Enlighten me.

sbvera13 · Apr 16, 2007

Pagan means a number of things depending on whos saying it. In the past it was an insult aimed at anyone who wasn't Christian.

Nowadays it usually refers to a modern revival of some sort of nature based religion, Wicca is one example. The term "pagan" is generic though and could refer to other religions, from modern shamanism to druidism. The word itself evolved out of the latin word for countryside and was not originally an insult.

Debunked? You misunderstand the nature of the belief. For most pagans (I cannot speak for all) it is a very personal thing, about self searching and understanding. What you're doing is looking at other beliefs the way you'd expect your own to behave. It is impossible to debunk something that is subjective and emotional.

Andoverpolo · Apr 16, 2007

sbvera13 said:
Pagan means a number of things depending on whos saying it. In the past it was an insult aimed at anyone who wasn't Christian.

Yea that's what I thought

Nowadays it usually refers to a modern revival of some sort of nature based religion, Wicca is one example. The term "pagan" is generic though and could refer to other religions, from modern shamanism to druidism. The word itself evolved out of the latin word for countryside and was not originally an insult.

So the tie that binds is a connection to nature?

Debunked? You misunderstand the nature of the belief. For most pagans (I cannot speak for all) it is a very personal thing, about self searching and understanding. What you're doing is looking at other beliefs the way you'd expect your own to behave. It is impossible to debunk something that is subjective and emotional.

I believe in objective logic and empiracle observation.

sbvera13 · Apr 16, 2007

Nature reverance is the most common tie; it is not universal though. There are some exceptions.

Andoverpolo said:
I believe in objective logic and empiracle observation.

Because spiritual belief does not describe the physical world, or make statements about the physical world, empirical evidence is not relevant to understanding it. I can say a tree is sacred; cutting it down does not change that, because sacred is an emotional meaning and says nothing about how the tree will act in an observable way.

I also believe in empirical observation, when it's relevant. If someone says that magnets have healing power, that can be tested in a real and physical sense; I would have to believe the results of that test. If someone said humans have a soul, there is no physical way to test that.

Gardenia · Apr 16, 2007

I love when threads eat my long replies..

Anywayyyy..
Yeah, there are still pagans. There are quite a few pagans here in NCR actually.

A Wiccan is a pagan, but not all pagans are Wiccan. Think.. baptists are Christian, but not all Christians are baptist.. though there is often less tying pagan traditions together than Christian ones. There is no single pagan holy text, we don't all worship the same Gods.. etc. It is hard to define exactly what is pagan, since the various pagan traditions are so numerous and different. As a Kemetic (Egyptian) reconstructionist, some of the things I believe may be similar to what a Wiccan believes.. but there are vast differences too.

Neither of your examples really affect my beliefs.. so I will let someone whom they might share their views with you.
If I had to guess though, I would think some things are not meant to be taken quite so literally..

Here is a thread which may give you more ideas as to who pagans are, and some of their beliefs.
http://www.christianforums.com/t5062957-paganism-and-monothiesm-general-thread-for-discussion.html

Livindesert · Apr 16, 2007

Doesn't it kind of bother you that there are regular bus tours to the top of Mount Olympus and nobody has bumped into Zeus or Hera yet? Or... Charlemagne chopped down the sacred tree with an axe?

Seems kind of debunked doesn't it? Are there interpretations about these events?

Hey,

I will give you a Catholic example since you are Catholic. The Pope is suppose to be infalibile but the Popes are just human and make lots of mistakes. Mary apparitions when looked at from a scientific view point is just the human brain looking for know patterns.Dose this invalidate Catholicism, no because Catholicism is just an outward perception of your spirituality, the very core of your being. Just as no one can say vanilla is better than chocolate ice cream but you can enjoy the flavor you choose.You can take communion and to and outsider it looks like you are eating a wafer and drinking some wine, but to you you are experiencing Jesus. Hope that helps

Fuzzy · Apr 16, 2007

Andoverpolo said:
So, I just learned an interesting thing the other day... apparently there are pagans still. I'm not sure what that term means exactly, I was under the impression it was perjorative but some college girl introduced herself to me as a "pagan" which surprised me.

Originally, it's derived for the Latin term for someone who lives in
the country. It became a religious perjorative when Christianity
initially spread to the Roman cities. People in the cities trended
towards Christianity (due to personal belief or political benefit) while
the countryfolk converted later.

"Pagan" is a fairly common word in English, and she may have
been more comfortable just calling herself that, than some sort
of qualified description of her beliefs.

Andoverpolo said:
Right, well anyway, what precisely is a "pagan" or is that just another word for Wicca? And who do you pray to?

In a loose sense, a pagan is someone who practices a religion that
the observer doesn't agree with. Paganism and orthodoxy are
matters of perspective. In a specific sense, it's someone who
practices a small (possibly as small as just them) religion, as opposed
to practioners of the Abrahamic faiths or the major Eastern religions.
The venerated entity, or entities, can vary from faith to faith and
practitioner to practitioner. Wicca is a specific subset under the
umbrella of Paganism.

Andoverpolo said:
Doesn't it kind of bother you that there are regular bus tours to the top of Mount Olympus and nobody has bumped into Zeus or Hera yet? Or... Charlemagne chopped down the sacred tree with an axe?

Does it bother you that Mankind's machines get further and
further from Earth, yet there's no sign of an overarching
vault? Does it bother you that people have sought the Second
coming for about nineteen centuries or so? And how do you
know the heathen gods, like Odin the Wanderer or Zeus (who was
known to don a disguise or two) aren't among us?

Andoverpolo · Apr 18, 2007

Livindesert said:
Hey,

I will give you a Catholic example since you are Catholic. The Pope is suppose to be infalibile but the Popes are just human and make lots of mistakes. Mary apparitions when looked at from a scientific view point is just the human brain looking for know patterns.Dose this invalidate Catholicism, no because Catholicism is just an outward perception of your spirituality, the very core of your being. Just as no one can say vanilla is better than chocolate ice cream but you can enjoy the flavor you choose.You can take communion and to and outsider it looks like you are eating a wafer and drinking some wine, but to you you are experiencing Jesus. Hope that helps

I'm Catholic because my wife is Catholic and it's important to her. Faith icons don't capture what I'm thinking.

I don't believe in anything I can't prove or experience, from papal infallibility and transubstantiation to Mary appearing on french toast.

Ironically I'd have much more difficulty believing in God if there wasn't a Jesus because then there would be zero quantifiable evidence for his existance. Now once we get past the fact a guy named Jesus existed a couple hundred years ago, and claimed to be God it's a simple matter of asking whether that's a true claim. At least we're dealing with something tangible at this point.

My answer is I don't have enough data. Thus the reason as I explained earlier I'm on the fence about almost everything religion related.

The lovely thing about my situation is when I say "I believe X" I'm actually right. For example - I believe two plus two is four. Hey - whaddya know? I'm right! Now compare that to the guy that says he believes the tin foil hat keeps the kashistis from reading his brain. There's a credibility gap there - you tend to want to ask this guy how he figures that. If he gives you whispy responses like "I asked Why?" or promises it's just something you have to feel... well... that's not the sort of thought train you want to jump on board is it?

Why should religion be any different? Especially considering the stakes since every last religion on Earth promises me eternal damnation if I believe in somebody elses nonsense instead of their nonsense. Hell sometimes I can get a death sentence as a special two for one deal with certain religions.

Andoverpolo · Apr 18, 2007

Fuzzy said:
Originally, it's derived for the Latin term for someone who lives in
the country. It became a religious perjorative when Christianity
initially spread to the Roman cities. People in the cities trended
towards Christianity (due to personal belief or political benefit) while
the countryfolk converted later.

I didn't know that about the countryside thing... So was this all native gallic stuff or was it the Roman religion?

"Pagan" is a fairly common word in English, and she may have
been more comfortable just calling herself that, than some sort
of qualified description of her beliefs.

What is the difference, why would somebody be comfortable calling themself something to which they did not meet the description?

In a loose sense, a pagan is someone who practices a religion that
the observer doesn't agree with. Paganism and orthodoxy are
matters of perspective. In a specific sense, it's someone who
practices a small (possibly as small as just them) religion, as opposed
to practioners of the Abrahamic faiths or the major Eastern religions.
The venerated entity, or entities, can vary from faith to faith and
practitioner to practitioner. Wicca is a specific subset under the
umbrella of Paganism.

So basically a pagan can be anything... but more specifically Wicca?

Does it bother you that Mankind's machines get further and
further from Earth, yet there's no sign of an overarching
vault? Does it bother you that people have sought the
Second
coming for about nineteen centuries or so?

People look for Leprachauns to snatch their pots of gold... in Alabama. Hell they're willing to go to war of a "Holy City" in a spot where it never actually existed (don't tell the Israelis or the Muslims that, the people of Ophel will not be amused) So no it doesn't bother me that people search for things that don't exist. I just assume it has something to do with the unquenchable desire for more.

And how do you
know the heathen gods, like Odin the Wanderer or Zeus (who was
known to don a disguise or two) aren't among us?

Not a very valiant thing to do, hide amongst the mortals that is, don't you think?

Gardenia · Apr 18, 2007

Andoverpolo said:
Why should religion be any different? Especially considering the stakes since every last religion on Earth promises me eternal damnation if I believe in somebody elses nonsense instead of their nonsense. Hell sometimes I can get a death sentence as a special two for one deal with certain religions.

Uhh.. actually... not every religion says that at all.

Livindesert · Apr 18, 2007

Andoverpolo said:
I'm Catholic because my wife is Catholic and it's important to her. Faith icons don't capture what I'm thinking.

I don't believe in anything I can't prove or experience, from papal infallibility and transubstantiation to Mary appearing on french toast.

Ironically I'd have much more difficulty believing in God if there wasn't a Jesus because then there would be zero quantifiable evidence for his existance. Now once we get past the fact a guy named Jesus existed a couple hundred years ago, and claimed to be God it's a simple matter of asking whether that's a true claim. At least we're dealing with something tangible at this point.

My answer is I don't have enough data. Thus the reason as I explained earlier I'm on the fence about almost everything religion related.

The lovely thing about my situation is when I say "I believe X" I'm actually right. For example - I believe two plus two is four. Hey - whaddya know? I'm right! Now compare that to the guy that says he believes the tin foil hat keeps the kashistis from reading his brain. There's a credibility gap there - you tend to want to ask this guy how he figures that. If he gives you whispy responses like "I asked Why?" or promises it's just something you have to feel... well... that's not the sort of thought train you want to jump on board is it?

Why should religion be any different? Especially considering the stakes since every last religion on Earth promises me eternal damnation if I believe in somebody elses nonsense instead of their nonsense. Hell sometimes I can get a death sentence as a special two for one deal with certain religions.

There are no stakes other than how you choose to live your life. If a tin foil hat works for you then great If God helps you channel your will and thoughts then that works for you. If strict materialism works then go for it!
Since you believe Jesus was just a guy why not change your icon to atheist,deist,or agnostic? If your wife is on the forum then she can read your post and will know where you stand ,and if not then why have the act still? Be proud of who you are and don't worry about what other religions or people think of you or where they say you will end up.

Fuzzy · Apr 18, 2007

Andoverpolo said:
So was this all native gallic stuff or was it the Roman religion?

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. As Christianity spread
through the Roman world, it went to the major cities first. Through
exposure in the cities, the cityfolk became aware of Christianity's
message while the countryfolk, who visited the cities once or twice
a year, stuck to the older Roman religion (and elements of that
religion were imported from the Greeks or the Celts)

Andoverpolo said:
What is the difference, why would somebody be comfortable calling themself something to which they did not meet the description?

Andoverpolo said:
So basically a pagan can be anything... but more specifically Wicca?

Without knowing this person and her beliefs, we have to assume
"pagan" is an appropriate term. If she believes in a Divine Being
without adhering to Christian orthodoxy, Gardnerian (Wiccan)
tradition, Voudoun, or Asatru, "pagan" is an appropriate term.
I know people who self-identify as pagan, who participate in
Wiccan rituals and solicit Eris for help. "Pagan" is a good catch-all
term, much like "Christian" covers Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans,
and Mennonites.

Andoverpolo said:
I just assume it has something to do with the unquenchable desire for more.

Or the unquenchable desire for "why?"

Andoverpolo said:
Not a very valiant thing to do, hide amongst the mortals that is, don't you think?

Could also be the gods are in disguise to observe and test.
An old man in a blue hat and cloak, or a carpenter's son, would
be a little more discreet than a radiant Titan.
Matthew 25:40 sums it up pretty well.

Literary aside...
Douglas Adam's Long Dark Tea Time Of The Soul presents the gods
as still around, except no one believes in them, so no one believes
when they do godly things. Thor's temper tantrum at an airport
is an exploding gas main. Odin lives in a private hospital, and is
known as Mr. Smith or somesuch, the kindly old man with one eye.

Steezie · Apr 18, 2007

As others have pointed out, Pagan means different things to different people.

Specific answers are avalible if specific questions are asked to specific people. Its a fairly common standard that Pagans have very diverse beliefs.

If you like, I would be happy to answer anything you may ask. As Im sure would many others here.

Sapphos · Apr 22, 2007

Andoverpolo said:
Hi - first off - Hello there,

So, I just learned an interesting thing the other day... apparently there are pagans still. I'm not sure what that term means exactly, I was under the impression it was perjorative but some college girl introduced herself to me as a "pagan" which surprised me.

Right, well anyway, what precisely is a "pagan" or is that just another word for Wicca? And who do you pray to?

Doesn't it kind of bother you that there are regular bus tours to the top of Mount Olympus and nobody has bumped into Zeus or Hera yet? Or... Charlemagne chopped down the sacred tree with an axe?

Seems kind of debunked doesn't it? Are there interpretations about these events?

Enlighten me.

Pagan is a collective term for several disparate faiths.
However in general they are modern interpretations of what I call the old faiths - such as the Ejyptian, Celtic or Viking faiths.
Wicca is slightly different in that it is an entirely new faith, though it's roots are in the older faiths. However it is usually one of the faiths included under the title of Pagan.

Hope this was useful,

Blessed be

GuitarHero2 · Apr 23, 2007

Well I just want to ask a few questions, about paganism, of my own as well...

- How many sects of paganism exist?

- What gods do pagans generally worship?

- What makes you think that your "gods" exist?

- How do pagans view monothiestic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism?

- How does Wicca come into the mix as far as paganism, goes?

- Can someone also briefly explain to me what Wicca is?

- Can someone also provide me on some reading material regarding paganism(I like studying religion)?

Gardenia · Apr 23, 2007

- How many sects of paganism exist?
It depends on what you consiter pagan. I would guess countless, since each eclectic pretty much has their own path.. but if you counted all the eclectics as one, it would still be hard to get an exact number. Dozens. At least.

- What gods do pagans generally worship?
Ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Sumerian, Aztec.. Even Hindu, Voodoo, Shinto, and more. Some worship a God and Goddess, others specific deities. Some are agnostic, some atheist..
I worship those of ancient Egypt, myself.

- What makes you think that your "gods" exist?
Personal experiance with my Gods, when I had no other experiances with any other Gods from other religions or even from other pagan paths. I wouldn't attempt to hand my personal experiances off to someone else as proof for them, but it is enough proof for me. (This is not to say I think only my Gods exist, or that only my path is valid..)

- How do pagans view monothiestic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism?
With the same respect I view any religion. I may not agree with everything from each religion, but I see no need to go around constantly bashing them, or anything like that.

- How does Wicca come into the mix as far as paganism, goes?
Wicca is one specific pagan tradition. Not all pagans are Wiccan.

- Can someone also briefly explain to me what Wicca is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

- Can someone also provide me on some reading material regarding paganism(I like studying religion)?
If you want to study my religion (Kemetic reconstructionism), head to the library and into the ancient Egyptian history and religion section.

Sapphos · Apr 23, 2007

I'm afraid I can only answer a few of your questions, but I will answer those that I can.

- What gods do pagans generally worship?
That depends on their religion. I personally believe in a mother goddess - an embodyment. I also believe in the Celtic gods - the old Gods of my nation. But I believe in them and Worship them to the extent that Catholics do saints - Holy, but lesser than the main deity.

- What makes you think that your "gods" exist?
The same that makes anyone believe. I'm afraid I can offer no great epistimology. I can only say that it seems logical to me that any deity of this world woul be a creature of nature. I have felt the mothers love.

- How do pagans view monothiestic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism?
The trouble that Paganism is very personal - more a faith than a religion. But I personally have no problem with them, if they have no problem with me. As many do, I do have certain negative expectations of Christians in particular, but mostly I hve no problem with them.

- Can someone also briefly explain to me what Wicca is?
- Can someone also provide me on some reading material regarding paganism(I like studying religion)?

http://paganwiccan.about.com/ - find this website very interesting. It also does email courses not various aspects of Paganism, such as the main British Pagan festivals.

GuitarHero2 · Apr 23, 2007

Thanks for the info!

Steezie · Apr 23, 2007

GuitarHero2 said:
- How many sects of paganism exist?

If you count the Ecclectics as individual paths, hundreds of thousands. If you include the Ecclectics in one group, then a safe estimate would probably be several hundred

- What gods do pagans generally worship?

Pagans worship a wide range of gods, some worship a main female Goddess (interpretations and ideas about this Goddess vary from person to person), others a dualistic male God and female Goddess, others specific pantheons such as Egyptian or Greek. Still others believe in a current of magic and energy run through the world which can be interracted with by us, but not necessarily gods. Pagans run the whole spectrum

- What makes you think that your "gods" exist?

Its difficult to explain this answer in a way that would satisfy someone who does not share my beliefs. Call it...a gut feeling combined with personal experience.

- How do pagans view monothiestic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism?

Most Pagans have a live-and-let-live policy. There are some Pagans who feel that they are being persecuted by larger faiths, but this is a small and rather mis-informed minority. As long as other faiths respect my beliefs, I have no problem with them. I've never been preached to or condemned by a Jew or a Muslim.

- How does Wicca come into the mix as far as paganism, goes?

Wicca is to Paganism what Catholicism is to Christianity. They are very closely related and techinically Wicca falls under the paramaters of Paganism. Wicca is the most prominent and well-known member of the Paganism family.

- Can someone also briefly explain to me what Wicca is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#Core_concepts This is a good place to start.

- Can someone also provide me on some reading material regarding paganism(I like studying religion)?

There are many good articles on Witchvox ( www.witchvox.com ) but your best bet in terms of books are the Idiot series. The Complete Idiot's Gude To books are great books, they break everything down very simplistically and give you a great over-all picture.

GuitarHero2 · Apr 23, 2007

Being that I'm kinda have diestic ideas.. I found the particular sect of Shamanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism to be interesting. I am a fan of more spiritual, self im-powerment, nature-esque spirituality(like Buddhism). So can the pagans on this board give me their opinions about Shamanism and tell me more about the more diestic, nature-based, philophsical esque sects of paganism. Also can somebody go more into detail about duo-thiesm(the whole two diety thing)? Also what is a reconstructionist?

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