Pagan religions

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Dec 20, 2004

vedickings said:
Well yeah, I guess.

My understanding of pagan is that it mostly means anti Bible, or better, heathen, which mean believeing in no God of any kind.

So pagan is not the right word for hinduism, as hindus believe in God and many Gods as well.

So christians please stop calling hinduism pagan, because is just show that you are being misinform.

peace

While I agree with Hinduism not being called pagan, I cannot agree with the concept that paganism is a false religion, ancient or neo. I personally won't care if my version of Hinduism is called paganism.

Bevlina · Dec 20, 2004

Can someone here define just what paganism is? I know pagans don't believe in a god of any type , but, just what do they believe in?

pensive · Dec 20, 2004

Bevlina said:
Can someone here define just what paganism is? I know pagans don't believe in a god of any type , but, just what do they believe in?

I'll try to do a rough explanation based on two of my favorite works (one of which primarily focused on defining ancient paganism, the other of which focused on characterizing modern Paganism.)

Paganism is actually an umbrella term used to describe a number of unique, yet related religions. The most general description that could be given is that they are at least somewhat loosely based on the practices and beliefs of the pre-Christian religions of Europe (and at least according to some authors like Jones and Pennick, India).

Beyond that, there probably aren't any universal beliefs that every Pagan group holds to. However, there are a rough list of beliefs that are common to the point that any Pagan group will hold to a large number of these "common threads" and each individual belief is held by a large number of Pagan groups.

1. The belief in multiple gods on some level (even if it's a matter of those many gods being "aspects" of a greater Divinity, such as the case in eclecticism).

2. The belief that Divinity is both masculine and feminine.

3. The belief that Divinity is immanent. (Often, Pagans believe that Divinity is both immanent and transcendant.)

4. The belief that the natural world is beautiful, precious, and valuable.

Hrm...For some reason, those are the only four items I can think of at this time. The original list I'm trying to pull from memory (compiled by Gus diZerega in "Christians and Pagans") listed three other "common threads." Unfortunately, they escape me at the moment.

I hope that helps.

Bevlina · Dec 20, 2004

Thanks pensive! It does help! I often wondered about paganism.

Rogue Light · Dec 20, 2004

The definition of Pagan is any religious belief other than: Islam, Christianity, or Judaism (Hence Hinduism being Pagan). The word pagan today is amily used as a title, many people call themselves Pagan and worship all different matters of things. Mostly though, I believe when we refer to actual 'Paganism', the majority of fingers would point to Druidism and Germanic religions.

Rogue Light · Dec 20, 2004

pensive said:
I'll try to do a rough explanation based on two of my favorite works (one of which primarily focused on defining ancient paganism, the other of which focused on characterizing modern Paganism.)

Paganism is actually an umbrella term used to describe a number of unique, yet related religions. The most general description that could be given is that they are at least somewhat loosely based on the practices and beliefs of the pre-Christian religions of Europe (and at least according to some authors like Jones and Pennick, India).

Beyond that, there probably aren't any universal beliefs that every Pagan group holds to. However, there are a rough list of beliefs that are common to the point that any Pagan group will hold to a large number of these "common threads" and each individual belief is held by a large number of Pagan groups.

1. The belief in multiple gods on some level (even if it's a matter of those many gods being "aspects" of a greater Divinity, such as the case in eclecticism).

2. The belief that Divinity is both masculine and feminine.

3. The belief that Divinity is immanent. (Often, Pagans believe that Divinity is both immanent and transcendant.)

4. The belief that the natural world is beautiful, precious, and valuable.

Hrm...For some reason, those are the only four items I can think of at this time. The original list I'm trying to pull from memory (compiled by Gus diZerega in "Christians and Pagans") listed three other "common threads." Unfortunately, they escape me at the moment.

I hope that helps.

^^ That's good too

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Dec 20, 2004

pensive said:
I'll try to do a rough explanation based on two of my favorite works (one of which primarily focused on defining ancient paganism, the other of which focused on characterizing modern Paganism.)

Paganism is actually an umbrella term used to describe a number of unique, yet related religions. The most general description that could be given is that they are at least somewhat loosely based on the practices and beliefs of the pre-Christian religions of Europe (and at least according to some authors like Jones and Pennick, India).

Beyond that, there probably aren't any universal beliefs that every Pagan group holds to. However, there are a rough list of beliefs that are common to the point that any Pagan group will hold to a large number of these "common threads" and each individual belief is held by a large number of Pagan groups.

1. The belief in multiple gods on some level (even if it's a matter of those many gods being "aspects" of a greater Divinity, such as the case in eclecticism).

2. The belief that Divinity is both masculine and feminine.

3. The belief that Divinity is immanent. (Often, Pagans believe that Divinity is both immanent and transcendant.)

4. The belief that the natural world is beautiful, precious, and valuable.

Hrm...For some reason, those are the only four items I can think of at this time. The original list I'm trying to pull from memory (compiled by Gus diZerega in "Christians and Pagans") listed three other "common threads." Unfortunately, they escape me at the moment.

I hope that helps.

Hinduism has all the above 4 points and some. One more thing we believe is

5. Divinity in its real sense is one-without-a-second while in the worldly sense(illusory) it is all(infinite).

ravenscape · Dec 21, 2004

Sometimes I think there are more definitions of paganism than there are pagans ;->

Pensive's definition is very good. At least this pagan (me) believes that the divine is everywhere, inhabiting every blade of grass, every breath of air, every stream, every grain of sand.

When I look at a tree I am looking a part of the divine. There's a term anima, animas that means there's a spark of the divine in every plant, animal and person. Some people think that the Earth itself lives and breaths and therefore has animas. I tend to go along with this idea. The animal, plant, person is completely of this world and in this world. And also completely connected to the infinite. Both at once and inseparably.

The term Namaste is something very similar. "The light (divine) in me honors the light (divine) in you".

Starcrystal · Dec 22, 2004

Interesting. I thought Platos Allegory of the Cave is a perfect example of people coming out of the darkness into the light, and sometimes being drawn back to the darkness and shadows because that's what they were so familiar with. the light hurts their eyes at first, just as some people find it painful to give up their old ways and embrace the light of Christ.
I don't see what's wrong with at least that work of Plato.

Pensive,
1. The belief in multiple gods on some level (even if it's a matter of those many gods being "aspects" of a greater Divinity, such as the case in eclecticism).

2. The belief that Divinity is both masculine and feminine.

3. The belief that Divinity is immanent. (Often, Pagans believe that Divinity is both immanent and transcendant.)

4. The belief that the natural world is beautiful, precious, and valuable.

#1 NO. I believe there is one God, not multiple, but I do believe God has different aspects (Father, Son, Holy Spirit (Mother)) and that God also commisions angelic beings to work in the creation, and sometimes to interact with us.

#2 YES, I believe that. Elohiym is feminine. Wisdom is feminine. Holy Spirit is feminine. God is not a human, but a spirit, and we were made in Gods (Elohiym's) image and according to Genesis "male and female" created he them in "his" image. (Generic "he" and "his" there which can be applied to either male or female.)

#3 BOTH, Yes. God transcends all and we transcend into Gods transcendence by approaching in spirit. It is not a fleshy or material practice. But God is also immanent, ever present and right there. God works in creation in a visible way. God is personal and not unapproachable. God deals both collectively and individually.

#4 YES. Genesis 2:15 - Adam was commisioned to "dress and to keep" the garden, the perfect creation. These words mean "guard, protect, preserve, cultivate, till" - but do not mean exploit or ruin, pollute, etc. In Deuteronomy when Moses blesses Joseph (33) he brings out the specialness of creation, including the Moon, Sun, and Stars. Psalm 19 as well. Revelation 11:18 says God will destroy those that destroy the earth.

Oh my, I'm almost a Pagan!
No, in reality I believe what the Bible actually teaches and I am open to the Holy Spirit, rather than believing blindly what MAN says the Bible says.

God_of_Mercy · Dec 22, 2004

Starcrystal, just wondering why you think Holy Spirit is feminine?

Farid · Dec 22, 2004

vedickings said:
Ok i've notes that christians look down on pagan religion (non Bible religions). But I came upon some info about pagan regarding christians.

Did you know that christian theology and philosophy relies heavily on Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, who were pagan philosophers?

Why don't you say that God revealed some ideas through those philosophers as to make the acceptance of christian theology easier by those to follow?
Further, Christianity is the continuation of Judaism (in terms of fulfilling prophecies..etc) which existed thousands of years before the above mentioned philosophers.

Starcrystal · Dec 22, 2004

God_of_Mercy,
Starcrystal, just wondering why you think Holy Spirit is feminine?

If you look at the original Hebrew & Greek words used both in "God" during creation, Holy Spirit in the NT, and wisdom (Sophia) as compared to the Holy Spirit it becomes very clear. No one would ever figure it out from the english translation, or probably any translation from the original.

ravenscape · Dec 22, 2004

I heard about the Holy Spirit gender bender in a discussion about the apparent lack of Feminine Principal in Christianity. Is Judaism a patriarchal religion?

I've never really understood for sure because it's matrilineal in terms of whether you are a Jew. If your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. But the temple priests were all male. Are there female rabbis today?

GnosticBodhi · Dec 22, 2004

peaceful soul said:
We see the religions as deceptive in spirtual terms. We hate the fact that others have put their faith in something that will lead them away from God.

Every religion teaches universal love, which according to the Bible does not lead away from God.

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him."
--1 John 4:16

Starcrystal · Dec 22, 2004

Ravenscape,
I heard about the Holy Spirit gender bender in a discussion about the apparent lack of Feminine Principal in Christianity. Is Judaism a patriarchal religion?

I PM'ed you about it

cabbitgrrrl · Dec 23, 2004

ukok said:
Christianity has it's foundation in Christ and therefore has no need of relying upon non-Christian philospohers.

IIRC, the people who wrote the old testament, which christianity does appear to rely upon, were non-Christian

cabbitgrrrl · Dec 23, 2004

HadouKen24 said:
You have to make a fine distinction between the Bible and your interpretation of it. The text lends itself to many different interpretations. One would have to look closely at what your church teaches to see whether its interpretation was influenced by pagan thought or not, but I'd say the odds are good.

seeing as most of the churches celebrate christmas and easter, i'd say they are influenced by "pagan" thought

cabbitgrrrl · Dec 23, 2004

ravenscape said:
Is Judaism a patriarchal religion?

Your kidding right? have you looked at the old testament? First off just having a leading male god makes the religion patriarcal. Second, the old testament has several things about relating menstration and child-birth to being unclean. I'm sure I could dig up more if I just looked lol. Not to mention the male priests only gig, if it were non-partriarcal there would most likely be priestesses

ravenscape · Dec 23, 2004

cabbitgrrrl said:
Your kidding right? have you looked at the old testament? First off just having a leading male god makes the religion patriarcal. Second, the old testament has several things about relating menstration and child-birth to being unclean. I'm sure I could dig up more if I just looked lol. Not to mention the male priests only gig, if it were non-partriarcal there would most likely be priestesses

I had always thought it was 99% patriarchal but the matrilineal aspect and the Sophia references made me wonder. I don't claim to be an expert on Judaism as it's practiced today or how it's been practiced over time. I just know the popular stereotypes basically. Since I get stereotyped quite a bit myself I don't assume stereotypes are correct.

I'm no expert on the new or old testaments. I don't study them much. But I guess you're making references to all the rules for running a huge traveling circus in the desert that are outlined in Leviticus.

Please let me clarify. I'm not saying that your reply is stereotyping. I'm saying that my assumptions are stereotyping and are therefore suspect.

Brightest Blessings ;->

ravenscape · Dec 23, 2004

Starcrystal said:
I PM'ed you about it

Thanks! Great stuff!

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