Orthodox

Dream · Jan 7, 2005

I have read quite a bit of what Protestants have against Catholics, Catholics have against Protestants, Orthodox have against Catholics, but I have read almost nothing at all about what Catholics have against Orthodoxs.

So I ask of you, why do Catholics think that Orthodoxs are wrong or incorrect in their thinking? The Orthodox faith claims that the Catholic Church split from them, and of course the Catholic Church claims the opposite. What evidence do we have to back up this claim? Any information or links would be appreciated.

Of course, I'd ask any information you have to be presented in a respectful manner.

To my Orthodox brothers and sisters that come here on a regular basis, please do not view this as an attack on your religion. I am very ignorant when it comes to Catholic-Orthodox relations and wish to learn as much as I can. Any questions I have about the Orthodox faith, I will come directly to you. Please understand I am only trying to better educate myself.

Thanks in advance.

Maximus · Jan 7, 2005

The real dispute between Eastern Orthodox and Catholics (regardless of what some might say it is) is over the papacy.

Orthodox see the Bishop of Rome as "first among equals" in the College of Bishops, like a president or prime minister presiding over a parliament.

Here is an interesting web site by a Greek Orthodox convert to Catholicism.

Schmitty · Jan 7, 2005

the word Catholic means Orthadox..... anyhow, Paul himself said he was just a mere man; God shined brightly through him, but Paul gave all the credit to God.

Who are we to decide who God shines through or not? You can give any Christian any title, but a title is nothing without God's grace.

BjBarnett · Jan 8, 2005

Catholic means Universal

Hoonbaba · Jan 8, 2005

DreamTheater said:
So I ask of you, why do Catholics think that Orthodoxs are wrong or incorrect in their thinking? The Orthodox faith claims that the Catholic Church split from them, and of course the Catholic Church claims the opposite. What evidence do we have to back up this claim? Any information or links would be appreciated.

Hmm...maybe it's just me but I don't think they are wrong or incorrect in their thinking. I just don't think they've developed their doctrines like ours. That's all. I love our Orthodox brethren. There's SO much we can talk about without getting into theological disputes, especially when we go deeper into the days when there wasn't this huge and ugly schism. I've been somewhat regularly attending an Orthodox parish along with a Catholic parish, and it's just so wonderful to talk about things like Mary, the Incarnation, Trinity, etc. There's so much common ground and they've got valid sacraments too =)

By the way, Dave Armstrong's got a section devoted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

-Jason

Rising_Suns · Jan 8, 2005

but I have read almost nothing at all about what Catholics have against Orthodoxs.

That's because Catholics don't really have anything against our Orthodox brethren. Although they are Schismatic, the Church sees the Orthodox united to her in a very profound way, so much so that they can receive the body and blood of Christ in our Churchs. It's unfortunate that the same honor is not returned back to us, as Catholics are generally not allowed to receive Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church.

But Maximus is correct; the main reason over their split is the papacy. Beyond that our differences are so minute that it can be chalked up mostly to semantics. Most Orthodox, however, tend to magnify our differences; they essentially see the Catholic Church as the first Protestant dissenters.

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide

xenia · Jan 8, 2005

You guys are so gracious it blows me away.

Love, Xenia

MariaRegina · Jan 8, 2005

Schmitty said:
the word Catholic means Orthadox..... anyhow, Paul himself said he was just a mere man; God shined brightly through him, but Paul gave all the credit to God.

Who are we to decide who God shines through or not? You can give any Christian any title, but a title is nothing without God's grace.

Orthodox = right thinking; correct worship

Catholic = the unchanging Holy Faith delivered by Christ to the Apostles and believed everywhere by all peoples at all times.

These are our points of agreement.

artnalex · Jan 8, 2005

Aria said:
Orthodox = right thinking; correct worship

Catholic = the unchanging Holy Faith delivered by Christ to the Apostles and believed everywhere by all peoples at all times.

These are our points of agreement.

But it is not exhaustive.

Maximus · Jan 8, 2005

artnalex said:
But it is not exhaustive.

True.

IMHO, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox agree about 99% of the time, if not more.

Part of the evidence of that is our shared mutual adherence to the great first seven Ecumenical Councils of the Church, which were formative in clearly stating what the Apostolic Tradition had always been.

Rising_Suns · Jan 8, 2005

Yes, I find most of our differences to be mostly in semantics. For example;

1. Instead of "purgaotry", they say "state of purification after death" (same thing)

2. Instead of saying "spiritual" and "phsysical", the Orthodox say "Created" and "Uncreated"

3. Instead of "Original Sin", they say that all man is born into a fallen nature with no personal fault (same deal)

4. Instead of "Transubstantiation", they say that the Eucharist becomes the actual flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, but do not define it (same thing; it's a mystery)

5. Instead of "Immaculate Conception", they say that Mary was removed of sin at some point in her life.

6. Instead of saying the Holy Spirit procedes from the Father and the Son, they say from the Father alone. We both recognize that the Holy Spirit procedes through the Son as well, with the Father as the ultimate originator.

Alexis OCA · Jan 8, 2005

I would just like to add that I am happy we can fully participate in the beautiful Byzantine liturgy with our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters who are in full union with the Holy Father.

geocajun · Jan 8, 2005

Also, Catholics do not really have anything against anyone. Michelle (Shelb5) pointed this out a while back - many groups identify themselves by how they "are not Catholic" to compose their identity, but the Catholic Church just teaches the truth, not attacking anyone for its identity.
The truth stands on its own merit.

Dream · Jan 8, 2005

geocajun said:
Also, Catholics do not really have anything against anyone. Michelle (Shelb5) pointed this out a while back - many groups identify themselves by how they "are not Catholic" to compose their identity, but the Catholic Church just teaches the truth, not attacking anyone for its identity.
The truth stands on its own merit.

Yes, you are correct. I guess I should have phrased my question better. Maybe something along the lines of "where and why are Orthodox in error?"

But thank you everyone for your responses.

thereselittleflower · Jan 9, 2005

Maximus said:
The real dispute between Eastern Orthodox and Catholics (regardless of what some might say it is) is over the papacy.

Orthodox see the Bishop of Rome as "first among equals" in the College of Bishops, like a president or prime minister presiding over a parliament.

Here is an interesting web site by a Greek Orthodox convert to Catholicism.

That is basically it . . . And that is what it came down to for me in the final analysis . . I was raised EO . . so I had a great desire to go back to the EO . . But I couldn't if the pope was really who the Catholic Church said he is . .

Well . . you know what happened.

Peace in Him!

Skripper · Jan 9, 2005

Maximus said:
True.

IMHO, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox agree about 99% of the time, if not more.

Part of the evidence of that is our shared mutual adherence to the great first seven Ecumenical Councils of the Church, which were formative in clearly stating what the Apostolic Tradition had always been.

Agreed. Yet isn't it a pity so many choose to argue over the 1%?

garydench · Jan 9, 2005

I think that Orthodoxy also believes that Mary was responsible for Christ's divinity as well as his humanity (Theotokos), whereas we believe she was only respomsible for his humanity (Christotokos.)

Alexis OCA · Jan 9, 2005

thereselittleflower said:
That is basically it . . . And that is what it came down to for me in the final analysis . . I was raised EO . . so I had a great desire to go back to the EO . . But I couldn't if the pope was really who the Catholic Church said he is . .

Well . . you know what happened.

Peace in Him!

During you conversion process, if I may call it that, did you consider joining any of the Eastern Catholic rites in full communion with Rome? My apologies if that question is too personal, I am just curious.

Warm regards.

Skripper · Jan 9, 2005

garydench said:
I think that Orthodoxy also believes that Mary was responsible for Christ's divinity as well as his humanity (Theotokos), whereas we believe she was only respomsible for his humanity (Christotokos.)

Neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that Mary was "responsible" for Christ's divinity. That's not what the doctrine of Theotokos means. It simply means that the two natures of Christ cannot be divided/sparated; it means that Mary gave birth to one divine Person, not merely to a "nature" and that it is, therefore, incorrect that Mary gave birth to Christ's human "nature" only. Mothers give birth to babies, to persons, not merely "natures." This is not to imply or suggest, as many mistakenly conclude, that if the doctrine of Theotokos is correct then this must somehow mean that Mary in some way "preceded" God on some eternal, cosmic timeline . . . no.

Polycarp1 · Jan 9, 2005

garydench said:
I think that Orthodoxy also believes that Mary was responsible for Christ's divinity as well as his humanity (Theotokos), whereas we believe she was only respomsible for his humanity (Christotokos.)

Forgive me, Gary, but if you believe that, you are heretical by definition of the Church, which holds to the Council of Chalcedon decision defining the Theotokos doctrine. (I hasten to add that I don't say that to insult, but to bring to your attention what I understand to be an error in your thought vis-à-vis what the Church teaches.

===

It occurs to me that probably the key difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy lies not in the details of the Filioque, the proper mode of crossing oneself or what constitutes proper breads for the eucharistic liturgy, etc., but in the ecclesiology. Catholicism holds that Christ founded one Church with Peter at its head under Him, and that whoever separates themselves from the Bishops of Rome who are Peter's successors in that role, separates themselves from His Church to that extent. Orthodoxy holds that He founded one Church under the Twelve Apostles, with Peter as their leader, and that being part of the Church means being in union with the communion of national churches which remain united in communion with each other though autonomous, descend lineally from that Church, and hold fast to the faith which that Church taught. There's a significant difference in the conceptualization of "Church" as an organic body there. (Geocajun explained this much better many months ago, but I can't find the thread.)

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